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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies.


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  #37  
Old May 14th, 2009, 01:54 PM
Sarpedon Sarpedon is offline
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

Greetings, Ollie and Aldin.

Ollie, when did I say that only A and A+ units are tournament-worthy? Look again at the army I presented in my previous post. The Marro Drones and the Hive are not A or A+ units (they're B's!). I know that there are non-elite units that, given the right army build, can function and even excel. It's true that I don't think that, at this time, DWK 9000 is competitive. I've explained why I feel that way and you've explained (very well) why you disagree. I would add that I would be very happy to face an opponent who had drafted DWK 9000 in a tournament.

Aldin, you say that I've made some highly authoritative posts. What do you mean by authoritative? Do you mean that I claim to be right? If that's the case, let me set the record straight: I am not a brilliant Heroscape player and anything I write concerning game theory is purely my opinion/speculation about it. I have attended, on average, three tournaments per year and, on average, I finish 3rd-5th. I play regularly at home with very good players who, unfortunately, do not care to contribute to the threads at this site. It's a shame, because they play better than I do. In fact, many of the ideas I get about the game are inspired by their play.

You stated that you think the army I proposed would be better served by the removal of the Hive and the inclusion of Raelin (and more squads?). You may be right. That it (the Hive) hasn't worked for some in tournaments may mean that they didn't play it properly. I would like to see a top-notch player try it, however, before I knock it. Regarding my authoritative tone, perhaps my style of writing is not to your liking, or comes across as authoritative. Other than ceasing to post, I don't see what I could possibly do about that. I hope you continue to read (and enjoy? even a teensy-weensy bit?) my posts. I do my best to write to the best of my ability. Always. Maybe that's the problem?

P.S. : did the (simple/innocent) question I asked Nwojedi bother you that much that you remember it to this day? It was months ago! I didn't even remember it until you brought it up. You guys must be building a serious case against me or something (not that you'd need to). I thought that all this time I had been doing a fine job of posting. Not only are my posts unappreciated (by some), but I must also have inadvertently committed sacrilege! Wow.

Last edited by Sarpedon; January 27th, 2010 at 06:17 PM.
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  #38  
Old May 14th, 2009, 04:11 PM
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

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Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
Ollie, when did I say that only A and A+ units are tournament-worthy? Look again at the army I presented in my previous post. The Marro Drones and the Hive are not A or A+ units (they're B's!).
I was responding to your previous post. Reading it again, I see you say "A and A+ armies" rather than specifying A and A+ units, which is slightly different. My experience and reading here are still telling me that it's not just the elite builds that are winning events. I'd be really interested in any evidence to the contrary---what armies win the touraments in your area?
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  #39  
Old May 14th, 2009, 04:47 PM
Sarpedon Sarpedon is offline
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

Greetings, Ollie.

I'd rather not go into specifics (partly because I'm not the kind to keep super-accurate stats like you), but, in general, winning armies here almost always feature multiple, ranged, common squads. It's usually Stingers or 4th Mass.. Major Q9 armies have not won (that I know of), however, since we've started using 500-point builds. By the way, you're one of the few people who have been big enough to own up to having misread one of my posts. Good on you.
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  #40  
Old May 14th, 2009, 04:53 PM
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

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Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
Greetings, Ollie.

I'd rather not go into specifics (partly because I'm not the kind to keep super-accurate stats like you), but, in general, winning armies here almost always feature multiple, ranged, common squads. It's usually Stingers or 4th Mass.. Major Q9 armies have not won (that I know of), however, since we've started using 500-point builds. By the way, you're one of the few people who have been big enough to own up to having misread one of my posts. Good on you.
It's most likely the amount of times he's been used in your area.. much in the similar way that Here in the Northeast the 4th aren't used much and therefore don't have any tournament wins under their belt!

This is more based on if the players want to bring the unit to the tournament than the unit itself!

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  #41  
Old May 15th, 2009, 11:27 AM
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

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Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
Greetings, Ollie.

I'd rather not go into specifics (partly because I'm not the kind to keep super-accurate stats like you), but, in general, winning armies here almost always feature multiple, ranged, common squads. It's usually Stingers or 4th Mass.. Major Q9 armies have not won (that I know of), however, since we've started using 500-point builds. By the way, you're one of the few people who have been big enough to own up to having misread one of my posts. Good on you.
I'll let you into a secret regarding "super-accurate stats": the trick to making them more accurate is to keep on posting them. Start with any old rubbish, maybe even with appropriate disclaimers, and then keep recycling them until they become part of the communal consciousness. Before long, people will believe them. One of my stats students tried to unearth the basis for the "four out of five dentists..." Trident gum claim for a final project this semester. It's a 1960s unpublished paper that asks a different question than the one they use in the advertising. Priceless quotation from their marketing dept: "it's a slogan not a statistic".

Anyway, back to 'scape, the way to change your metagame is to change your armies and then win with them. Easy. If you think your Hive army has what it takes, then go for it (like Aldin, I'm a little sceptical, particularly that the drones are the optimal choice, but it's certainly a good army that has a chance). If common ranged squads are dominating, then counterdraft against them. Rats and unique range? Knights? Dund?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shades Fan
It's most likely the amount of times he's been used in your area.. much in the similar way that Here in the Northeast the 4th aren't used much and therefore don't have any tournament wins under their belt!
Actually the first Battle at the Border was won by an army that had 4th Mass x5, but I think your overall point is correct.
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  #42  
Old May 15th, 2009, 11:33 AM
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

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Originally Posted by ollie View Post
One of my stats students tried to unearth the basis for the "four out of five dentists..." Trident gum claim for a final project this semester. It's a 1960s unpublished paper that asks a different question than the one they use in the advertising. Priceless quotation from their marketing dept: "it's a slogan not a statistic".
I've always wanted to find the dentist who's recommending that his patients chew gum with sugar.
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  #43  
Old May 15th, 2009, 11:58 AM
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

Today I wrote up an alternative way of coming up with a tournament army, based on my earlier order marker theory.

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #44  
Old May 15th, 2009, 01:27 PM
Sarpedon Sarpedon is offline
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

Jexik, I'm a huge fan of your order marker theory, and the latest installment is no exception. I like how you've shown its importance in competitive, positional games. I must a admit, though, what I like best is the photo of your opponent in despair. Priceless.

Ollie, you're my go-to guy for all things math. I'm just not sure I'd be able to rehash stuff, lol. Each post is like a painting for me. I produce it as best I can, and then, if no one brings it up again, I forget about it. Besides, my math skills are really poor. Strangely, I almost always got very good marks in geometry. Geometric (visual) analysis comes easily to me. Perhaps that's why I like chess and Heroscape as well as other spacial-risk-reward games.

Last edited by Sarpedon; May 15th, 2009 at 01:34 PM.
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  #45  
Old May 15th, 2009, 01:34 PM
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

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Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
I must a admit, though, what I like best is the photo of your opponent in despair. Priceless.
I feel kind of bad about that. The guy in that pic is one of the greatest heroscapers around, and has done a lot for the game, but every time I see that pic, I crack up too. I'm not even sure if that's what he's doing in that photo, since my rats haven't even engaged his sentinels yet, but it certainly looks like it. Supergeek took an excellent photo either way.

Since you like the hive, one weird control army that I've been kicking around in my head but haven't gotten a chance to try yet is this:

Hive 160
Raelin 240
3x Stingers 420
2x Deathreavers 500

On a slightly long map like Embattled Fen, I could see this one doing fairly well in an hour long game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #46  
Old May 15th, 2009, 01:42 PM
Sarpedon Sarpedon is offline
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

Yes, Jexik, on an elongated map that army would do well against most. The one I proposed was designed to win by attrition as well. I'm not sure whether 3 or 4 squads (or more) of Stingers is best. I've never tested it, though perhaps I should send such armies (using proxies) head-to-head when playing with my friends. Either way, I have found the Hive to be very effective if you're playing for a points win or long tactical victory: the longer the game lasts, obviously, the more value the hive (re)produces.
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  #47  
Old May 15th, 2009, 03:42 PM
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

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Originally Posted by Shades fan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
Greetings, Ollie.

I'd rather not go into specifics (partly because I'm not the kind to keep super-accurate stats like you), but, in general, winning armies here almost always feature multiple, ranged, common squads. It's usually Stingers or 4th Mass.. Major Q9 armies have not won (that I know of), however, since we've started using 500-point builds. By the way, you're one of the few people who have been big enough to own up to having misread one of my posts. Good on you.
It's most likely the amount of times he's been used in your area.. much in the similar way that Here in the Northeast the 4th aren't used much and therefore don't have any tournament wins under their belt!

This is more based on if the players want to bring the unit to the tournament than the unit itself!
You know, taking an underplayed established army may give you a leg up in a tournament. If people have all adapted to not playing against them, then the element of surprise may work in your favor.

Last edited by Oestedb; May 15th, 2009 at 03:51 PM.
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  #48  
Old May 15th, 2009, 04:10 PM
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Re: The Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

I tend to agree with that - the exception is the RaeliBlastaGlads, where they're essentially army neutral and are tough to beat with any given army.

Personally, I think my winningest armies are those that are less usual like those that employ Theracus, Deathwalker 7000, and other figures that have a surprise aspect to them.

Gencon will be very interesting this year since the new wave will be out and playtested by the masses, so we may see some new champions emerge over the tried-and-true standards we've seen over the last 2 Gencons.

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