Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I think I understand the excitement the 'glyph team' has for the glyph system, I just don't share in that enthusiasm. I'd personally prefer having all the synergy just on the new figure cards rather then have a MM card + 3 more glyph cards all for MM. And if I run new MM & Cyborg JL figure cards I now have 6 more glyph cards full of powers in play. Toss Batman II into the mix for 3 more utility glyph cards and now I have 12 cards for just 3 figures. Add in 4 more figure cards to take full advantage of the JL glyph cards (Batman II & Cyborg cover 2 of the 6 leaving 4 more JL characters to choose) and I have 16 cards spread out in front of me for just 7 figures.

I don't think anyone's proposing what you wrote above. I'm certainly not. IMO the best approach would be a single hub (Martian Manhunter) with an option for 3 glyph cards. It'd be just like adding Batman 2.0 to your army. No more, no less.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Have each team glyph feature 3 different JL members so MM could easily team up with 3 other members of the league with just 1 card. Since you can choose a different team glyph each game you could still rotate the JL line-up. You just end up with similar army builds as each team glyph would result in you drafting at least 2 of the 3 figures mentioned on the team glyph.

This is an option we've discussed, but I think we've largely moved past for the very downside you mention. It's not flexible enough and overly prescriptive (which is the issue with the current marker write ups, IMO, you almost have to have all three cards with markers to really feel like you've created a full team or are fully taking advantage of the powers).

Originally Posted by Yodaking

While that system is doable, it does eliminate the fun factor of cross publisher mash-ups that some players really enjoy. Where some days I know I'll play a true to form pure JL line-up of Superman, WW, Green Lantern, Flash, Batman, MM, & Hawkgirl. I also know that some days I'll feel like swapping out Superman for Thor, Batman for Daredevil, and Quicksilver for Flash just because I can and it might be fun to try out. The specifically named team glyphs eliminates that option.

No it doesn't. I think this is a huge misnomer that is tripping some folks up. What Sock and I are proposing adds to the options of how you can assemble a Justice League team. It doesn't eliminate any.

Here's a for instance: I can currently make an Avengers team without Captain America, Ms. Marvel, or Wasp 2.0. If I want, it can include Green Lantern, Flash, and Superman and be the Avengers. How do I know? Because I put them on the battlefield and I called them the Avengers. Having Captain America, Ms. Marvel, and Wasp doesn't ruin that. They just give you options for adding synergies that flow through more iconic members. We'd be doing the same thing.

And if you drafted Martian Manhunter with glyphs for Flash, Green Arrow, and Batman, and wanted to throw in Thor and Daredevil, nothing in our proposed system ruins that either. Or you could draft the other Martian Manhunter without the glyphs and do the same thing. We're talking about adding options, not taking them away.

If anything, the system Sock and I are proposing is a lot more open-ended than the marker system that was voted down, because it only depends on bringing a single figure in to work (Martian Manhunter 2.0) and then he has several options for who he can use to further that synergy. The marker system really asks you to draft three specific figures, with no flexibility, as the core of your army. Sure, you can leave some of the synergies off the table, but you could also draft three Martian Manhunter Justice League Strategy Glyphs and only use one or two of them if you like. It's no different.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Being able to change things up is what keeps the game fresh and new each time you sit down to play.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I fear I would quickly grow bored with the JL if I had to use some combination of the same 12 guys each time.

And that would be your fault, no matter what design we end up going with, for thinking that you had to do anything in order to play with the Justice League. If you feel like you can play the Justice League with Thor in the lineup, you certainly should feel you can play the Justice League both with and without any synergies that we all end up deciding on.

I'm just perplexed by you guys who think that adding new designs and new synergies somehow limits your options, when it really increases them.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Dysole

Your clarity on theme allows me to phrase my example perfectly. You have Justice League dudes. I have some other army but I have Batman (doesn't matter who). You have Batman as well. I kill Martian Manhunter and manage to get a hold of the Batman glyph. Now with a justice league strategy, I am able to use my Batman for your Justice League strategy. It feels a bit weird to me. (although a Flash or Green Lantern feels even more odd) Make sense?

Yes, complete sense. And I completely agree with you. It's one of those mechanical things that I'd like to see ironed out on this, and that I do think can be. It might be as simple a matter as the glyphs get destroyed when Martian Manhunter is. Or we might think of some text that keeps the powers in play whether Martian Manhunter is or not. I definitely think it's doable, especially with so many intelligent minds here. I don't think it's so much of a challenge that it should torpedo the idea, certainly.

Since I've clarified the theme, it's just a matter of figuring out which mechanics best express that theme. Maybe back more to Aggressive Sock's take where the powers essentially become powers on the cards of the named figures for the remainder of the game, ala Doctor Doom?

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I think I understand the...

I feel there's still confusion from your end though. We don't have to have 3 glyphs on Martian Manhunter, Cyborg, and Batman. Not at all. In fact, I don't believe that was ever stated as such. I know I said "it's possible Cyborg could start with 2 glyphs, just in case you don't want to have to draft MM every time", but these are all just hypothetical. Batman definitely wouldn't be able to.

Martian Manhunter could start with 2, and Cyborg could start with 1. It's all up for debate, and dependent on who we want to redesign.

As for this:

Originally Posted by Yodaking

While that system is doable, it does eliminate the fun factor of cross publisher mash-ups that some players really enjoy. Where some days I know I'll play a true to form pure JL line-up of Superman, WW, Green Lantern, Flash, Batman, MM, & Hawkgirl. I also know that some days I'll feel like swapping out Superman for Thor, Batman for Daredevil, and Quicksilver for Flash just because I can and it might be fun to try out. The specifically named team glyphs eliminates that option. I've played the X-men with all classic members of the team before and had fun doing so, I've also played the X-men with a mixture of classic members and some mutants that were never featured on the team and had fun with that as well.

Being able to change things up is what keeps the game fresh and new each time you sit down to play. I fear I would quickly grow bored with the JL if I had to use some combination of the same 12 guys each time. I know I still use the Fan 4 when testing because the are a solid 1000 point army to gauge a new units army build against, but when just playing with my friends on the weekend I have not played them in quite a while as I'm always interested in trying out new figures and combos.

It doesn't eliminate the fun factor of cross platform play. You can still draft other heroes and they will receive the benefits from the Justice League characters. For example, say you have Loki. Do you want Loki with more than 4 movement? Draft the Flash, Red Tornado, or Cyborg, and be treated to their movement bonuses. How about drafting Zatanna and throwing down an Ice tile for Iceman? Or perhaps getting someone that can remove Order Markers, and drafting Wonder Woman so she can see all Order Markers when a figure is lassoed.

The synergy in theme, and out of theme, are still just as present, if not multiplied due to more powers being offered here.

As for the 2nd paragraph. I bolded that first sentence. This is EXACTLY why we love this Glyph route. You can draft your army, and you don't always have to receive/choose the same bonuses. The Justice League doesn't always have to rely on the same static bonuses each and every time they play. You don't have to design a team around something like Captain America's +1 attack and defense at the cost of a marker. You can sometimes, and then other times you can plan for a different bonus to aid your group. Need a d20 boost? Get the Martian Manhunter glyph. Need mobility? Get Flash's glyph. Need Order Markers re-arranged? Get Batman. Want elemental tiles? Get Zatanna's glyph. Want an initiative boost? Get Superman. You plan it out based on what you want for that game, and what powers best supplement the team you are playing. It doesn't have to be all Justice League, but they will be bringing a wide array of powers to choose from if you draft that specific figure, and then you can make all sorts of armies to benefit from it. It is the definition of fresh and new each time.

Whereas with the markers, you're literally forced to have the same bonus each time, regardless if it fits your team or not. So your building options are actually less.

[laughing matter]

We all realise that you CAN draft guys like Thor, or Daredevil, but with this glyph system you don't get anything for drafting them, and those guys don't receive any specific bonuses from the glyphs so most people won't draft them.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by laughing matter

We all realise that you CAN draft guys like Thor, or Daredevil, but with this glyph system you don't get anything for drafting them, and those guys don't receive any specific bonuses from the glyphs so most people won't draft them.

I disagree on that they don't get anything for drafting them. The bonus you get from a Justice League character and their glyph power, could be just what a non-Justice League member is looking for. As I have suggested, if you want Thor, Martian Manhunter's glyph raising his d20 is sure beneficial. Loki or Darkseid with their move of 4, if you draft The Flash and he is carrying guys while he moves, to get them into battle quicker, is beneficial. So on and so forth.

Also, you're stating that "they don't receive active benefits from the synergy, so they won't draft them". This is no different than:

Would you draft non-Asgardians with Odin?
Would you draft non-Adventurers with Mr. Fantastic?
Would you draft non-Mutants with Professor X?
Would you draft non-Cybernetic Repair units in that synergy?
Would you draft non-Kryptonians with Zod?
Would you draft non-Undead with Dracula?
Would you draft non-Creatures with Frankenstein?
Would you draft non-Champions with Mongul?
Would you draft non-Titans with Nightwing?
Would you draft non-Legionnaires with Cosmic Boy?
Would you draft non-Fighters/Crime Fighters with Luke Cage?
Would you draft non-Outlaws with Scandal Savage?
Would you draft non-Mutants with Apocalypse?
Would you draft non-Outcasts with Mystique II?
Would you draft non-Patriotic/Soldiers with Uncle Sam?
Would you draft non-Black Lanterns with Black Hand?
Would you draft more than 5 units with Captain America?

Do you understand why that statement is just silly? The glyph system allows more flexibility and draftability, because it's not 1 static requirement when drafting your army. Your bonus is whatever you choose it to be. So many more figures become draftable, depending on which direction you take that game.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by laughing matter

We all realise that you CAN draft guys like Thor, or Daredevil, but with this glyph system you don't get anything for drafting them, and those guys don't receive any specific bonuses from the glyphs so most people won't draft them.

Bingo. Of course you can still draft MM2.0 with Thor instead of Superman, your army just suffers for is because Superman is specifically named on MM team glyph card and Thor is not. It would be like drafting Prof. X without any mutants. I can do it, but why would I ever want to?

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Bingo. Of course you can still draft MM2.0 with Thor instead of Superman, your army just suffers for is because Superman is specifically named on MM team glyph card and Thor is not. It would be like drafting Prof. X without any mutants. I can do it, but why would I ever want to?

You guys just aren't getting it.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I don't think anyone's proposing what you wrote above. I'm certainly not. IMO the best approach would be a single hub (Martian Manhunter) with an option for 3 glyph cards. It'd be just like adding Batman 2.0 to your army. No more, no less.

You just contradicted yourself. Batman II has 3 glyph cards, which is exactly what I detailed above. MM + 3 team glyph cards. Batman II + 3 utility cards. MM & Batman II in the same army now has 8 cards for just 2 figures.

[Karat]

Personally, I don't favor the glyph approach whatsoever. As a glyph, they could be stole by units such as Vulture or Shadow Thief, and IMO, synergies that build a team like the JLA should not be able to be stolen.

Thus, my favored approach so far would have to be the marker/class approach.

[Tornado]

Best of luck A_S and Bats. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help you.
I am simply not helping your cause and getting overly frustrated.
I will try to send some PMs, perhaps that tactic will be more beneficial.

That is a great point Karat and one based on fact. I think something could be worked out mechanically though to make them thief-proof.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

You just contradicted yourself. Batman II has 3 glyph cards, which is exactly what I detailed above. MM + 3 team glyph cards. Batman II + 3 utility cards. MM & Batman II in the same army now has 8 cards for just 2 figures.

Batman II and Apocalypse have 7.

Batman II, Quasar, and Red Skull have 8.

Batman II, Brainiac 5, Red Skull, Captain Marvel have 10.

What's your point? Is that really the denial for something fresh, new, and offering creative experiences each time you play(as you suggested you wanted)?

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Karat

Personally, I don't favor the glyph approach whatsoever. As a glyph, they could be stole by units such as Vulture or Shadow Thief, and IMO, synergies that build a team like the JLA should not be able to be stolen.

Thus, my favored approach so far would have to be the marker/class approach.

So have wording that prevents being stolen. Or have the glyph refer have the power refer to the figure's card instead of the glyph, for the remainder of the game, as if it is listed on the figure's card. Or have the glyph apply the effects for the entire game for that figure, and destroy the glyph immediately, thus making it permanent.