The Book of Sub-Zero

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Lazy said she thought he felt more in the 210 range after the recent updates, and you were playing him at 230, so was it possible you just felt he was underwhelming for the point investment at 230?

No

Originally Posted by Arkham

because I'd hate to see him become 100% gamble on everything he does, when the benefits from each are something others don't even have to gamble for.

This is my issue, he's had some big nerfs during play-testing and now there are a bunch of figures right around where he should be coming in that do very similar things to him except they're either doing them guaranteed (which is a huge difference), doing them better, or both. Black Manta is another one I didn't mention but operates in a lot of the same territory but is just generally better at it. Right now the only thing Subs really has as his own niche is he can screw with D-20 defense powers better than Katana usually can, but 'Spider-Man counterdraft' seems like a weird place for him to get his value from.

Wasn't there a version of Ice Clone that was basically the Forcefield X power with an auto wound attached if the attacker was adjacent to him? That would be the first change I'd try. It's hardly outside the power level of a 200 and something point figure (Wizard gets Forcefield X at 140), and it gives him a more unique feel. Feels a touch closer to how the clone works in the game too to me.

[Arkham]

I actually think the defensive ability is fine as-is, it’s the offensive side that feels like he’s outmatched by other figures with similar mechanics. If we were to upgrade or rework something, let it be his offensive effectiveness imo. The guaranteed stop an attack and auto-wound leads to more negative experience than interesting dynamic.

[Yodaking]

Maybe take a look at making the slide power have more of a role to play. Soundwarp seemed to consider it an afterthought, do lets make it something that stands out a bit more.

[Yodaking]

SLIDE 3
After moving normally with Sub-Zero, Sub-Zero may use Slide. Move Sub-Zero up to 3 spaces in a straight line. When using Slide, Sub-Zero may move through all figures and never takes leaving engagement attacks. When attacking a figure without the flying special power Sub-Zero moved through this turn, you may count all blanks rolled as skulls.


How does something like that look? After moving so he can use it more often, only terrain elevation changes and obstacles can keep him form sliding through anyone he encounters. All blanks = skulls so it has a bigger impact, that makes his 4 attack dice hit at a 66% rate. Flying figures just hop over him though without being effected so it does have a counter.

[Scapemage]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

SLIDE 3
After moving normally with Sub-Zero, Sub-Zero may use Slide. Move Sub-Zero up to 3 spaces in a straight line. When using Slide, Sub-Zero may move through all figures and never takes leaving engagement attacks. When attacking a figure without the flying special power Sub-Zero moved through this turn, you may count all blanks rolled as skulls.


How does something like that look? After moving so he can use it more often, only terrain elevation changes and obstacles can keep him form sliding through anyone he encounters. All blanks = skulls so it has a bigger impact, that makes his 4 attack dice hit at a 66% rate. Flying figures just hop over him though without being effected so it does have a counter.

I like this. It keeps that strategic movement element in tact while giving him a lot more viability. He might need a movement drop to compensate, or a restriction on using this version of the power once per round.

[Arkham]

Perhaps we need to double down on defense disruption instead of adding attack power. I like the idea that Sub's focus is on getting around or denying his opponents a full defense. It feels more like a Cryomancer Assassin.

Maybe make the Slide have a defense reduction of 1? You freeze and slide netting you a -3. Or you may just end up with -1 or -2 if you don't get both? Idk. Maybe a re-roll all shields mechanic for the Slide and have it take place right after you attack?

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

Perhaps we need to double down on defense disruption instead of adding attack power. I like the idea that Sub's focus is on getting around or denying his opponents a full defense. It feels more like a Cryomancer Assassin.

Maybe make the Slide have a defense reduction of 1? You freeze and slide netting you a -3. Or you may just end up with -1 or -2 if you don't get both? Idk. Maybe a re-roll all shields mechanic for the Slide and have it take place right after you attack?

How about something like subtract 1 shield from whatever is rolled?

[japes]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

How about something like subtract 1 shield from whatever is rolled?

That's more powerful than -1 to defense.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by japes

That's more powerful than -1 to defense.

I'm aware of that, but he was also suggesting a 're-roll all shields' mechanic, which I'd argue it's (probably - there's a major factor of randomness) less powerful than. Honestly, I'm just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

[Arkham]

Those all may be a bit drastic, but I ultimately agree with Soundwarp in that everything he does feels like it has a limitation/gamble/failure chance in it, yet the results are all things others get without the gamble factor.

Personally, the Ice Clone works for me as-is, as he has 5 defense with 5 life which is standard for the point level he's slotted for, so the Ice Clone doesn't need to be the guarantee to me. I could do without the "X" reveal, but that's been included simply for Scorpion's thing, which meh, but we've crossed that bridge already.

Ice Blast and Slide are the things I'd polish up a bit to make them better. Either take the gamble factor out, or up the ultimate result for pulling them off to make the benefit greater than what others are getting by default.

Simple small tweaks would be preferred, to not have to redo testing all over again. If we make a small enough tweak, one more set should be sufficient.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

Those all may be a bit drastic, but I ultimately agree with Soundwarp in that everything he does feels like it has a limitation/gamble/failure chance in it, yet the results are all things others get without the gamble factor.

Personally, the Ice Clone works for me as-is, as he has 5 defense with 5 life which is standard for the point level he's slotted for, so the Ice Clone doesn't need to be the guarantee to me. I could do without the "X" reveal, but that's been included simply for Scorpion's thing, which meh, but we've crossed that bridge already.

Ice Blast and Slide are the things I'd polish up a bit to make them better. Either take the gamble factor out, or up the ultimate result for pulling them off to make the benefit greater than what others are getting by default.

Simple small tweaks would be preferred, to not have to redo testing all over again. If we make a small enough tweak, one more set should be sufficient.

I prefer the idea of boosting the reward rather than removing the gamble - the fact that you have to actively do things and they aren't guaranteed to work feels more fitting for a fighting game character, to me.
Honestly, I'd still be in favour of just boosting his Attack to 5, letting his powers stand as is and make him feel a bit deadlier when his Ice Blast and/or Slide pay off, and a little less disappointing when they don't.

[Arkham]

I wouldn't be opposed to that. Another avenue is to make Slide add an auto-skull rather than a blank = skull.

A -2 to your opponent's defense + an attack of 4 + auto-skull would be worth the setup IMO.

If we feel the setup for Slide is too much(I didn't find it that hard to setup in my games), we could change it to an after moving thing that was suggested before and drop his regular move to 4.