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  #13  
Old September 10th, 2007, 04:01 PM
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ej ej is offline
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ej knows what's in an order marker ej knows what's in an order marker ej knows what's in an order marker
I'm not trying, once again, to defend our house's "no order marker" play. I understand I'm in the extreme minority. However, the question was asked why one would make this choice and I wanted to offer our reasons. Time and Fun.

I've mentioned in several past posts that the order markers added about 33% more time to our games, and our schedules are so hectic that it means the difference between being able to play 2 games or 3 games.

Plus, the frustrations of finding oneself unable to react to the opponents last move were pretty high. Since we play for fun we eliminated the part of the game that was detracting from that.

I recognize that a lot of strategy is lost this way, but for us that's fine. Yes, there are times when one hero is sent out, killed, then another hero is sent out with the rest of the army waiting. But we have fun.

The only time I recommend playing without them to others is when you're trying to bring a spouse or young one into the game and they're NOT having fun playing. Try playing with them again but this time release the shackles of the order marker system. The point is to play more, right?

That's quite an indepth article you've written there, and I highly respect the thought and work you've put into it. However, I'll say one more thing. In the past I've analyzed and postulated and come up with probability charts and, basically, killed the enjoyment of a game for myself by making it work instead of play. That's one major reason I don't pressure my kid into putting the markers back into play, because I don't want to have to work that hard and I don't want to overpower her strategically. Plus I can just see myself falling back into the old days of charts, calculators and memorizing a bunch of useless stats. I'm quite the obsessive/compulsive type.
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  #14  
Old September 10th, 2007, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ej
I'm not trying, once again, to defend our house's "no order marker" play. I understand I'm in the extreme minority. However, the question was asked why one would make this choice and I wanted to offer our reasons. Time and Fun.

I've mentioned in several past posts that the order markers added about 33% more time to our games, and our schedules are so hectic that it means the difference between being able to play 2 games or 3 games.

Plus, the frustrations of finding oneself unable to react to the opponents last move were pretty high. Since we play for fun we eliminated the part of the game that was detracting from that.

I recognize that a lot of strategy is lost this way, but for us that's fine. Yes, there are times when one hero is sent out, killed, then another hero is sent out with the rest of the army waiting. But we have fun.

The only time I recommend playing without them to others is when you're trying to bring a spouse or young one into the game and they're NOT having fun playing. Try playing with them again but this time release the shackles of the order marker system. The point is to play more, right?

That's quite an indepth article you've written there, and I highly respect the thought and work you've put into it. However, I'll say one more thing. In the past I've analyzed and postulated and come up with probability charts and, basically, killed the enjoyment of a game for myself by making it work instead of play. That's one major reason I don't pressure my kid into putting the markers back into play, because I don't want to have to work that hard and I don't want to overpower her strategically. Plus I can just see myself falling back into the old days of charts, calculators and memorizing a bunch of useless stats. I'm quite the obsessive/compulsive type.
I guess that's a good point. I'm sort of more of the opinion that you show the new guy all the cool tricks so he learns faster, but I also tend to play with 20-somethings who have played a lot of games in the past.

I stand by my liking of order markers. I'm starting to see how some can politely disagree though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #15  
Old September 10th, 2007, 05:41 PM
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That's a really great article! I, too, have had problems with "great" armies that suffered from order placement paradoxes. The AE are a classic example of this, as you mentioned. Thanks!
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  #16  
Old September 10th, 2007, 09:14 PM
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I, also have thrown out the Order Marker system. My group plays each round giving each of their units a turn to move, and no unit may move more than once per round unless by use of another unit (like placing an X order marker on each of your units, X meaning you activate that unit at any time).This adds to the reactivity of game play and makes for some more intense battles especially when 1 player has more units/heroes than another. We (my group) also find that giving each of your units a turn each round is more realistic than sending in 1 or 2 units in til they are gone, then sending another in. Maybe i havent given order markers enough of a chance, but i really havent seen any strategic deterioration as a result of their abandonment.

My2cents

Another days useless energy spent.
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  #17  
Old September 10th, 2007, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eggsaladsandwich
I, also have thrown out the Order Marker system. My group plays each round giving each of their units a turn to move, and no unit may move more than once per round unless by use of another unit (like placing an X order marker on each of your units, X meaning you activate that unit at any time).This adds to the reactivity of game play and makes for some more intense battles especially when 1 player has more units/heroes than another. We (my group) also find that giving each of your units a turn each round is more realistic than sending in 1 or 2 units in til they are gone, then sending another in. Maybe i havent given order markers enough of a chance, but i really havent seen any strategic deterioration as a result of their abandonment.

My2cents
When you do this, do you:
A. Go back and forth taking turns with army cards, or
B. Does one player move his whole army, and then it's the other guy's turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #18  
Old September 10th, 2007, 09:26 PM
eggsaladsandwich eggsaladsandwich is offline
 
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we take turns "activating" our cards, if you run out before your opponent then he still gets to activate the rest of his while you wait til next round.
The building of an army ie unique to common , hero to squad ratios become very important and well balanced armies usually win the day.

Another days useless energy spent.
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  #19  
Old September 10th, 2007, 09:32 PM
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This article is great! On the subject of order markers, I have found that in very large games (1000+pts), multiple sets of order markers work well at getting more figures mobilized, anything smaller and one set works great. Just my

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  #20  
Old September 10th, 2007, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eggsaladsandwich
we take turns "activating" our cards, if you run out before your opponent then he still gets to activate the rest of his while you wait til next round.
The building of an army ie unique to common , hero to squad ratios become very important and well balanced armies usually win the day.
Thats brocken. I'd just draft tons of orcs and such and could get nearlt twice as many turns as you.
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  #21  
Old September 10th, 2007, 09:57 PM
eggsaladsandwich eggsaladsandwich is offline
 
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Yes, tons of orcs "out turning" someone might work, but isnt that exactly how a "swarm" army is supposed to work? Its all about the Drafting, if you see your opponent drafting a "swarm" army, then you do likewise or try to counterdraft it in someway given your starting positions and terrain features of the map.

It takes a while to get the hang of it, but if you play with a regular group, you get to know the other players styles, preferences, strengths and weaknesses fairly quickly so the "meta game" becomes important also.
Its fun to wipe out an oppenents army, but if you can mess with his head at the same time, well, that the cakes icing.

Another days useless energy spent.
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  #22  
Old September 10th, 2007, 09:59 PM
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Swarming does not involve getting extra turns. It involves overwhlming forces with huge numbers.
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  #23  
Old September 10th, 2007, 10:08 PM
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As I mentioned somewhere, I have yet to play a game above the 650-700 point level, but if I did, I figure I'd do one of the following things:

1. Just stack two 500 point armies on top of each other, like taking the Orcish Horde! and combining it with Truth's Arrow Grut army. You could also cross things that you might not normally, like mixing Gladiatrons and Blastatrons with Sacred Band, or adding Mittens and Venoc Vipers to a Roman army.

2. I'd take a standard 500 point army and double things, adding maybe an extra hero or two here and there.

3. I'd try out expensive squads, heroes and Cheerleaders that I don't normally use, like The Einar Imperium, Taelord, Ornak and Omnicron Snipers... or hell, even allow Marvel units.

In none of these situations do I see the standard order markers causing me that much of a problem.

Some hastily thrown together 1000 point armies:

Robots in Disguise!
Marcus Decimus Gallus 100
Parmenio 190

4x Sacred Band 390
Airborne Elite 500
Krav Maga Agents 600
Kaemon Awa 720
2x Gladiatrons 880
2x Blastatrons 1000

Either you use the Blastatrons or the Sacred Band... Until the AE drop, then you use them until they die and continue with your main units. Use Kaemon Awa last.

Crazy Gruts
5x Arrow Gruts 200
4x Swog Rider 300
Mimring 450
Krug 570
Raelin 650
Taelord 830

Sonlen 990
Isamu 1000


Move Tae and Raelin up early onto height and largely forget about them. They're there to buff your Arrow Gruts and whatever else might pass by. When you lose Mimring and Krug, move Sonlen in to clean up whatever is left.

Holy Roman Empire, Batman!
Marcus Decimus Gallus 100
4x Roman Legionnaires 300
Ne-Gok-Sa 390
Me-Burq-Sa 440
Valguard 550
Empress Kiova 640
2x Einar Imperium 920
Raelin 1000

Once you move Raelin and Kiova approximately where you want them, you've got all of two places to put your order markers. Between Marcus, Kiova, and Raelin, you might actually have some respectable Imperium out there. A couple tough-as-nails tank heroes might also give them a chance to engage something.

Taelord's Beatdown
Taelord 180
2x Minions 400
4x Snipers 800
Raelin 880
3x Deathreavers 1000

Pretty self-explanatory.

Kato Katsuro, Daimyo at Large
Kato Katsuro 200
Tagawa Samurai 320
Hatamoto Taro 450
Izumi Samurai 510
Kozuke Samurai 610
Kaemon Awa 730
3x Ashigaru Harquebus 910
2x Ashigaru Yari 990

Swarm of the Marro
Marro Hive 160
Su-Bak-Na 320
4x Marrden Nagrubs 440
4x Marro Drones 640
6x Marro Stingers 1000

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #24  
Old September 10th, 2007, 10:29 PM
eggsaladsandwich eggsaladsandwich is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ares834
Swarming does not involve getting extra turns. It involves overwhlming forces with huge numbers.
Yes, and in order to get those huge numbers into position to overwhelm requires the extra turns.
I view the "round" as a parcel of time..all your units are doing something in that time so they should all get a turn (even if their turn consists of not moving at all).
Our system allows each player to be offensive and defensive depending on how the battle is playing out at that instant.
Next time you play, give it a try. If you dont like it.. fine, its just a different way to play with its own pros and cons.

Another days useless energy spent.
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