[Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides - Editing

[All Your Pie]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I dropped the text into Xorlof's Card Creator to get a quick visual, and it does look a bit dense. Combining the powers saves a little space, but it still looks like a sizable block of text.

In terms of wording and complexity, I'm curious to see what @Scytale has to say about this design. Getting a read on if all the complexity of this power is necessary or if we've appended a few too many conditions and complications onto how it works feels like what we need to focus on here.

Regarding wound markers, I'm not technically sure if you're allowed to have a figure on the battlefield with enough wounds on its card to destroy it. If a hero takes enough wounds to destroy it from a LEA mid-move it's immediately removed from the battlefield, so the rules would probably require you to immediately destroy any hero replaced with last will if you don't include the "remove all wound markers" clause. While it does make Krug a pretty bad choice to bring back, it's the opposite for Fen Hydras who would be prime targets to get one extra turn in a key position.

[Scytale]

It seems like a lot of effort for a thematic but not especially great effect. The mechanic comes off as forced to me.

From a technical side, you are running in to two potential problems:

1) Being able to put any Unique Hero of yours that gets destroyed on this army card has collisions with some powers. Most notably Spirit powers, which place the figure on other cards. While it seems like you could do either, the Spirit powers aren't clearly optional.

2) End-of-turn collisions are potentially a mess. There are a bunch of powers that trigger after a hero takes a turn. Do those happen or does the destruction after the bonus turn from Last Will happen first? It can matter for some powers. In VC we have made our own ruling that a player can choose the order of their own simultaneous effects, but that's not an official ruling.

Neither appears particularly insurmountable. Though I don't know what quality control this process has, so I don't know if it's expected to go through an Editing gauntlet or what.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Scytale

It seems like a lot of effort for a thematic but not especially great effect. The mechanic comes off as forced to me.

From a technical side, you are running in to two potential problems:

1) Being able to put any Unique Hero of yours that gets destroyed on this army card has collisions with some powers. Most notably Spirit powers, which place the figure on other cards. While it seems like you could do either, the Spirit powers aren't clearly optional.

2) End-of-turn collisions are potentially a mess. There are a bunch of powers that trigger after a hero takes a turn. Do those happen or does the destruction after the bonus turn from Last Will happen first? It can matter for some powers. In VC we have made our own ruling that a player can choose the order of their own simultaneous effects, but that's not an official ruling.

Neither appears particularly insurmountable. Though I don't know what quality control this process has, so I don't know if it's expected to go through an Editing gauntlet or what.

I think that you're correct in that a Viking or Varkaanan Spirit could be revived with Last Will, which feels a little worrisome in terms of clarity. We could address this by specifying that they need to be placed with the power itself, rather than by another source, but that still runs into this problem when Finn dies within 4 spaces of one of them. Does he still give them the boost since he's destroyed and on their card? It's not immediately clear, which is something we'll want to fix.

End-of-turn powers are definitely something else to keep an eye on. I've run into some similar trouble recently with one of my own customs. Nothing comes to mind immediately for conflicting with destroy-at-the-end-of-the-turn yet, but we should keep an eye out for anywhere that an interaction could break.

We definitely want to aim for units being as clean and free of rules issues as possible, just like C3V and SoV. As Pod Leaders, we should be watching for potential problems like this and fixing them early on. R&C's are an option, but I want to try to avoid those wherever possible.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

End-of-turn powers are definitely something else to keep an eye on. I've run into some similar trouble recently with one of my own customs. Nothing comes to mind immediately for conflicting with destroy-at-the-end-of-the-turn yet, but we should keep an eye out for anywhere that an interaction could break.

Our VC Editing Checklist has a long list of end-of-turn powers to compare against.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

We definitely want to aim for units being as clean and free of rules issues as possible, just like C3V and SoV. As Pod Leaders, we should be watching for potential problems like this and fixing them early on. R&C's are an option, but I want to try to avoid those wherever possible.

Is there some sort of quality control process here? One of the steps of C3V and SoV is to run the Editing gauntlet where we heavily scrutinize all possible rules conflicts.

[Pumpkin_King]

I think that’s something we need to discuss, borrowing an editing list.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

I think that’s something we need to discuss, borrowing an editing list.

I am willing to use that checklist for units here. But a formalized process would be a good thing for the project to ensure quality.

[Pumpkin_King]

Absolutely. Project leads of AOTV, we may want to get on that. Scy, could you PM me your editing checklist?

[Astroking112]

Agreed on both fronts. Let's continue this discussion in the Main Thread, where all PLs are more likely to see it.

[NecroBlade]

Last Will added to the OP so everyone can see what we're working with more easily.

End of turn powers is one sticking point, but this may be a case that's resolved by the "roll the d20 for simultaneous powers" rule.

For Viking and Wolf Spirits, we have to figure out if there's a difference between placing them with their own Spirit power (bonus) and Last Will (possibly no bonus). Either way it seems they'd be eligible to be removed from the card for a free turn (meaning a Spirit could get to the Geists after being destroyed anywhere on the board, not just within 4 spaces, which has a certain thematic connection at least). Once that's figured out, taking them off the card means the card is no longer getting a bonus. When they're destroyed by Last Will, they can then go on any card again to provide a bonus.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

For Viking and Wolf Spirits, we have to figure out if there's a difference between placing them with their own Spirit power (bonus) and Last Will (possibly no bonus). Either way it seems they'd be eligible to be removed from the card for a free turn (meaning a Spirit could get to the Geists after being destroyed anywhere on the board, not just within 4 spaces, which has a certain thematic connection at least). Once that's figured out, taking them off the card means the card is no longer getting a bonus. When they're destroyed by Last Will, they can then go on any card again to provide a bonus.

I agree with this interpretation, but more I'm concerned about whether this interaction is too complex for a decently common power. We won't be seeing kids picking this up in the stores anymore, but I'd prefer to avoid needing anyone to look up a R&C clarifying these steps if they pick up our set and Rise of the Valkyrie or one of the expansions.

[lefton4ya]

I like getting grid of "if that Hero was not previously placed with Last Will" so that you could take a turn with the same hero twice - once for each Lantern Geist. This way you could use them mid-game, or are we just making these cleanup figures only after you already have 2 heroes dead. Also maybe give them crazy defense (4-5 plus Insubstantial 2-3) so that they can be almost guaranteed 2 turns once you bring them out.

[Pumpkin_King]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I agree with this interpretation, but more I'm concerned about whether this interaction is too complex for a decently common power. We won't be seeing kids picking this up in the stores anymore, but I'd prefer to avoid needing anyone to look up a R&C clarifying these steps if they pick up our set and Rise of the Valkyrie or one of the expansions.

I don’t think this is too much of a stretch - once you actually sit down and logic out the sequence of events gets its obvious. But I do share your concern. I don’t know if there’s a better solution, though.