4th Mass or 10th regiment - Page 3

theodorelogan · #25 June 2nd, 2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

I just don't like the spread of misinformation.

No one is spreading misinformation. Just giving our opinions.

southwest ninja · #26 June 2nd, 2008, 02:46 PM

Who will win between the two is all in the roll of the dice.

Jexik · #27 June 2nd, 2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theodorelogan

I have no problem saying that Milton Friedman was wrong, either. He believed, for example, that the price of gold would plummet after the dollar was taken off the gold standard, foolishly believing that it was the dollar (a piece of paper) that was propping up the price of gold (money for thousands of years)

He also brought automatic withholding to America, which has done more to assault the liberties of Americans than almost any policy since WWII.

Milton claimed to believe in free markets, but his advocacy of the Federal Reserve remains baffling to libertarians.

If you cared...

I don't want to get into a debate about why monetarism makes a decent amount of sense here. Besides, I never really liked Macro anyway.

A lot of things are baffling to libertarians, like the existence of poor people.

But what about Coase? His theorem rox.

jedilou · #28 June 2nd, 2008, 02:56 PM

I think it's fair to say that most people's evaluation of the 4th Mass. assumes their use in an all Valiant army (or almost all Valiant - you can send out a suicide non-Valiant unit and get the bonus when they're dead).

Obviously, the 4th Mass have proven themselves many times. The 10th Foot look great on paper and will slip into lots of competitive armies. However, their Melee Defense has some serious holes that Valiant Defense is not susceptible to - they're called Special Attacks and each wave has more and more of them.

Also, Bayonet Charge is not going to provide any boon against opponents with Cyberclaw.

1Mmirg · #29 June 2nd, 2008, 03:05 PM

My take, if anyone cares, is that the Valiant Defense of the 4th Mass is incredibly significant. I am excited to try the 10th--they are a solid and fun looking 4 unit ranged squads (yeah!)--but I think that if I am really looking for a solid WTF team, I will still tend to the 4th.

Of course, this is all still theory (at least for me--I haven't proxied these guys), but the 4th Mass are proven effective. The 10th look good (and flexible), but I am unconvinced that they are the squad to give the 4th a run for their money. They will definitely help the Sacred Band and will be great in Marcus armies--I'm fairly sure of that.

heroscaper314 · #30 June 2nd, 2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jexik

Quote:

Originally Posted by heroscaper314

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jexik

4th Mass in a Valiant Army> Redcoats in Marcus and old Raelin army= 4th Mass in a Marcus and old Raelin army= Either squad in a good 'junk' army> Redcoats in a Marcus army= 4th Mass in a Marcus army

I'm a bit confused. I don't see how 4th Mass in a Marcus and old Raelin army would be as good as the 10th Regiment in a Marcus and old Raelin army. The 4th Mass wouldn't get the Valiant Defense bonus, so they would have 2 defense also, while the 10th Regiment would at least be able to get 3 defense if they were engaged.

Eclipse put it better than I probably could, so I'll quote him for you here. The underlines are my addition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipse

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenjib

Being able to field Marcus and Raelin will be a big benefit though.

I disagree. Its a benefit, but not quite as large as I expect it seems. The problem with Marcus/Raelin1 and the 4th Mass was never that it wasn't powerful, it was that it made you completely immobile. In that regard, nothing has changed. You can make your turtle grinder by gathering around Marcus under Raelin and fire at anything that approaches you, but at that point you're in the exact same situation as the 4th Mass: 4 attack, 4 defense, 0 Move. The only difference is that you're paying 5 points more per common for the ability to have 1 more defense if something gets to melee, but if you've ever played the turtle grinder with the 4th, nothing really gets to melee in the first place. The problem is that you can't really move without losing most of your bonuses.

Really, the only significant bonus the 10th have over the 4th is their melee abilities. Its a nice set of abilities, but essentially just makes them a little more flexible offensively. They don't have nearly the defensive flexibility of the 4th Mass, and I'd wager that's what will make them both viable choices. The 10th look like a great new unit and extremely fun to play, but I don't think they're significantly more powerful than the 4th in any way.

Okay, I get it now. That does make sense.

IAmBatman · #31 June 2nd, 2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedilou

Also, Bayonet Charge is not going to provide any boon against opponents with Cyberclaw.

It doesn't need to. They have WTF to deal with the glads. All it will do is put the 10th on even footing (pun) with the 4th in that particular situation.

kenjib · #32 June 2nd, 2008, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jexik

A lot of things are baffling to libertarians, like the existence of poor people.

To the mat!!! One...two...three...finito!

Taeblewalker · #33 June 2nd, 2008, 06:43 PM

Just for fun, suppose that there are two squads of 4th Mass and Isamu, against two squads of 10th Regiment. The points are equal, but without Valiant Army Defense, the 4th Mass are a bit at a disadvantage, especially if the 10th Regiment close. However, without Isamu (in spite of the loss of a figure) the 4th Mass can actually come out ahead, as long as they don't need to move much.

theodorelogan · #34 June 2nd, 2008, 06:59 PM

Quote:

To the mat!!! One...two...three...finito!

Naw, I debate politics enough on www.redscape.com .

This is my fun forum! No vitriol here!

NecroBlade · #35 June 2nd, 2008, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldin

Hmmm...

2x4th Mass
2xKnights
Sir Gilbert

vs.

2x10th Foot
3xLegos
Marcus

You got me, Sparky

~Aldin, who needs to play it out

Aldin, that looks like some ridiculous fun!

jedilou · #36 June 3rd, 2008, 12:30 PM

Tablewalker,

I like your hypothetical.

Admittedly, this might not always be a great idea (esp. b/c of map variation and need to move out and get height, etc.), but ...

You could also draft the 4th Mass. with Isamu (or Otonashi!) and emphasize him in the majority of your first few order markers and get him to take out what he can. Once he's dead, the Valiant Army bonus is active.

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