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  #25  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Let's just make sure we are understanding PD here. PD rewards more decisive victories. It doesn't punish anybody. Two players who are equally ranked will be compared to each other by how decisive their games were. The player who defeated his opponents more thoroughly each time ranks higher than the player who only manages to beat his opponent by a tiny margin.... Correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FunRun
1. In the first round some players ended up with +500 points because they got a random draw against a very weak army or player, and the loser starts out with -500. These extremes severaly tip the balance of who plays who for at least the next few rounds. Swiss doesn't start allow for such extremes.
It may not happen that often, but it certainly will happen. What it you end up with an identical record of someone who you never got to play during the tournament and they spent the first one or two rounds or the tournament playing much weaker opponents? The first few round's Strength of Schedule is not taken into affect.

[comical aside]Does this remind anyone else of College Football Rankings? [/comical aside]

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  #26  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Let's just make sure we are understanding PD here. PD rewards more decisive victories. It doesn't punish anybody. Two players who are equally ranked will be compared to each other by how decisive their games were. The player who defeated his opponents more thoroughly each time ranks higher than the player who only manages to beat his opponent by a tiny margin.... Correct?
Correct, but if a player is losing (lets say their first loss of the day) in Swiss they might have conceded or thrown all their rats at Charos versus PD format where running them off so the negative adjustment to their overall tournament point total isn't as severe.

In addition to what you say about the player that wins adding to their point total, when a players loses, they subtract from their point total. (am I wrong?) Thus they less you lose by, the less you are subtracting from your point total for the tournament. So even if they have no way of winning a game, point differential creates an incentive for them to not concede.

Granted my Charos versus rat is an extreme example, but not that far fetched. Why would a player send rats to die when he could hold them and not have to subtract as many points in his one loss? 80 points could be the difference between 9th and 5th.

Am I not making sense?

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  #27  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Let's just make sure we are understanding PD here. PD rewards more decisive victories. It doesn't punish anybody. Two players who are equally ranked will be compared to each other by how decisive their games were. The player who defeated his opponents more thoroughly each time ranks higher than the player who only manages to beat his opponent by a tiny margin.... Correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FunRun
1. In the first round some players ended up with +500 points because they got a random draw against a very weak army or player, and the loser starts out with -500. These extremes severaly tip the balance of who plays who for at least the next few rounds. Swiss doesn't start allow for such extremes.
It may not happen that often, but it certainly will happen. What it you end up with an identical record of someone who you never got to play during the tournament and they spent the first one or two rounds or the tournament playing much weaker opponents?

[comical aside]Does this remind anyone else of College Football Rankings? [/comical aside]
What if after each game, win or lose you just counted your own surviving points and used that as a tie breaker. The player who can save more of his army consistently gets rewarded??????

“Heroscapers is too old for that crap.”
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  #28  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:35 PM
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I thought I'd weigh in here also.
I didn't play in any of the tournaments, but I did watch a lot of games, and was in the room every day for periods of time.
First of all, Jerry and all of the other volunteers did an absolutely great job. It takes an enormous amount of time and effort organizing one tournament, let alone an entire weekends' worth.
Regarding the tournament formats, I know some local guys who run miniatures tournaments, and they rarely have any issues. I believe most of the tourneys are swiss style, with time limits (and possibly turn limits) for each round. I'm going to do a little investigating to see how they handle the issues that have been discussed here, or what they do to keep those issues from occuring.
One question I thought I'd throw out now is that is it possible to run rounds based not only on time limits, but on game turn limits?
In other words, a standard round will last 50 minutes, or say 10 or 12 game turns, whichever comes first? With the restriction that a game must go at least 8 turns to qualify. Games that don't go at least 8 turns will reward the winner of that game 1 point at most, with the loser getting 0 points. This should eliminate any desire to stall.

Also, I believe the guys here award points as follows:
Decisive victory = 4 points
Marginal victory = 2 points
Ties = 1 point
Loss = 0 points.

I'd think that some variation of the above might work.
I'll post more thoughts later.
Kevin
PS: It was great finally putting faces with names.
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  #29  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Let's just make sure we are understanding PD here. PD rewards more decisive victories. It doesn't punish anybody. Two players who are equally ranked will be compared to each other by how decisive their games were. The player who defeated his opponents more thoroughly each time ranks higher than the player who only manages to beat his opponent by a tiny margin.... Correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FunRun
1. In the first round some players ended up with +500 points because they got a random draw against a very weak army or player, and the loser starts out with -500. These extremes severaly tip the balance of who plays who for at least the next few rounds. Swiss doesn't start allow for such extremes.
It may not happen that often, but it certainly will happen. What it you end up with an identical record of someone who you never got to play during the tournament and they spent the first one or two rounds or the tournament playing much weaker opponents?

[comical aside]Does this remind anyone else of College Football Rankings? [/comical aside]
What if after each game, win or lose you just counted your own surviving points and used that as a tie breaker. The player who can save more of his army consistently gets rewarded??????
But again, that is limiting the styles that I can play effectively in a tournament (unless of course I just win out ... )

The inherent problem with any tournament style is that only definitive ranking is number one. After first place, it is just groupings of people with identical records. I agree with "rewarding" wins, we just disagree with "rewarding" the style in which you win.

If you are looking for the simplest answer, then PD may work. Unfortunately, it is not the most fair answer. What should be more important in a tournament?

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  #30  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:42 PM
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Grungebob Grungebob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Let's just make sure we are understanding PD here. PD rewards more decisive victories. It doesn't punish anybody. Two players who are equally ranked will be compared to each other by how decisive their games were. The player who defeated his opponents more thoroughly each time ranks higher than the player who only manages to beat his opponent by a tiny margin.... Correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FunRun
1. In the first round some players ended up with +500 points because they got a random draw against a very weak army or player, and the loser starts out with -500. These extremes severaly tip the balance of who plays who for at least the next few rounds. Swiss doesn't start allow for such extremes.
It may not happen that often, but it certainly will happen. What it you end up with an identical record of someone who you never got to play during the tournament and they spent the first one or two rounds or the tournament playing much weaker opponents?

[comical aside]Does this remind anyone else of College Football Rankings? [/comical aside]
What if after each game, win or lose you just counted your own surviving points and used that as a tie breaker. The player who can save more of his army consistently gets rewarded??????
But again, that is limiting the styles that I can play effectively in a tournament (unless of course I just win out ... )

The inherent problem with any tournament style is that only definitive ranking is number one. After first place, it is just groupings of people with identical records. I agree with "rewarding" wins, we just disagree with "rewarding" the style in which you win.

If you are looking for the simplest answer, then PD may work. Unfortunately, it is not the most fair answer. What should be more important in a tournament?
I would prefer to use software but there are logistic problems as noted. I would also prefer to minimize some trends in gameplay that are not fair such as stalling. If somebody's playstyle includes stalling, then I don't think it is a bad thing for them to change their style, especially if they are eating up too much of the clock and gaining an advantage by doing so.

“Heroscapers is too old for that crap.”
~IamBatman


"Hahahah! You losers! I told you so!!"
~Clancampbell
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  #31  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:44 PM
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R˙chean R˙chean is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
I would prefer to use software but there are logistic problems as noted. I would also prefer to minimize some trends in gameplay that are not fair such as stalling. If somebody's playstyle includes stalling, then I don't think it is a bad thing for them to change their style, especially if they are eating up too much of the clock and gaining an advantage by doing so.
I reiterate, I don't think that is a tactic that was being used. Stalling means you are knowingly taking longer with your turns than you normally do. This isn't what was happening. Players got upset because they lost and found something to complain about. The continued assertion that any player purposely went from normal playing mode to slow playing mode is a perception from players who lost; players who had a vested interest in the outcome. I say again: I didn't see anyone nor did I play anyone that purposely slowed down or sped up. In addition, in the 14 tournaments and 64 tournament games I have played I have yet to see this. (stalling when ahead on points)

Two sides to every coin, the person on the losing end is the one complaining. Did anyone that won complain that their opponent took too long? Probably not.

All PD does is change the possibilty; it doesn't remove it.

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  #32  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:49 PM
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Grungebob Grungebob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
All PD does is change the possibilty; it doesn't remove it.
I don't mind if it exists, I just don't want players to be rewarded for it. I don't want them punished I just want them to know that by stalling you are reducing your ability to gain points while increasing your chance at a win. It's a trade off.

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  #33  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by FunRun
1. In the first round some players ended up with +500 points because they got a random draw against a very weak army or player, and the loser starts out with -500. These extremes severaly tip the balance of who plays who for at least the next few rounds. Swiss doesn't start allow for such extremes.
It may not happen that often, but it certainly will happen. What it you end up with an identical record of someone who you never got to play during the tournament and they spent the first one or two rounds or the tournament playing much weaker opponents? The first few round's Strength of Schedule is not taken into affect.
I don't have an answer either but the discussion is going well. I brought up the above because I know for sure that at least 5 people got +500, and at least 3 of those happened in the first round. I looked over all the sheets of people who didn't make the finals and saw a few other +500 games, I would say en total there were six to eight people out of our 40(?) total who had +500 games. That is way too many IMO. Hence why I raised this issue.

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  #34  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:53 PM
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First I agree with many that Grunge Bob and all did a great job. It was lots of fun and from my seat things ran smoothly. I have been to 4 straight Cons now and would put the two HSer events I played to be at the top in this regard.

The only area that I saw that needed some minor improving was the timing of events. Heat of the battle seemed to have varying game time lengths from game to game.

If it were me I would try and start games on the hour and all games run 50 minutes. This keeps it simple and clean for all involved.

I saw no poor sportsmanship and I saw no one taking too long but I agree it might only be a perception problem and therefore still a problem that may need some addressing.

I applaud Grundgebob for being proactive in making the Heroscrapers events the best he can.

My number one request is there be more Swiss (like) events where we can play each round regardless of how well we are doing.

All in all my sons and I had a great time and we met some very nice people.

- Xaq

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  #35  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:57 PM
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UranusPChicago UranusPChicago is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Let's just make sure we are understanding PD here. PD rewards more decisive victories. It doesn't punish anybody. Two players who are equally ranked will be compared to each other by how decisive their games were. The player who defeated his opponents more thoroughly each time ranks higher than the player who only manages to beat his opponent by a tiny margin.... Correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FunRun
1. In the first round some players ended up with +500 points because they got a random draw against a very weak army or player, and the loser starts out with -500. These extremes severaly tip the balance of who plays who for at least the next few rounds. Swiss doesn't start allow for such extremes.
It may not happen that often, but it certainly will happen. What it you end up with an identical record of someone who you never got to play during the tournament and they spent the first one or two rounds or the tournament playing much weaker opponents?

[comical aside]Does this remind anyone else of College Football Rankings? [/comical aside]
What if after each game, win or lose you just counted your own surviving points and used that as a tie breaker. The player who can save more of his army consistently gets rewarded??????
But again, that is limiting the styles that I can play effectively in a tournament (unless of course I just win out ... )

The inherent problem with any tournament style is that only definitive ranking is number one. After first place, it is just groupings of people with identical records. I agree with "rewarding" wins, we just disagree with "rewarding" the style in which you win.

If you are looking for the simplest answer, then PD may work. Unfortunately, it is not the most fair answer. What should be more important in a tournament?
I would prefer to use software but there are logistic problems as noted. I would also prefer to minimize some trends in gameplay that are not fair such as stalling. If somebody's playstyle includes stalling, then I don't think it is a bad thing for them to change their style, especially if they are eating up too much of the clock and gaining an advantage by doing so.
GBob, you know I am not busting your chops and I wholeheartedly want to make this thing work...I just hate this scenario...

Maybe we could pre-screen all participants to see if they are cheating ps-ychopaths?

I totally understand the need to limit the "stuff" (read computers, software) that is needed to run tournaments. It just seems a crying shame to "punish" (again, a strong word, but you understand what I am getting at) some to limit the cheating of others.

I think the software is the best thing possible for the tournaments. (Remember how you and IMAX had to beat into my head the genius of Swiss Style formats in the first place for our first tournament? ) Unfortunately, the software and the laptop are not available to anyone wanting to run a tournament.

I see where you are coming from, but I just don't like the answers...

To me, it is like removing Welfare because of the people who abuse the system. What about the people who genuinely need it? You would be punishing the people who follow the rules to get at the people who bend/break the rules. It just doesn't work for me...

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  #36  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
If you sit down to the table, and you only get 20 minutes of playtime, because your opponent used much more time and got 40 minutes, then he has an unfair and excessively indulgent advantage.
Total game time used per player has zero influence on winning Heroscape because each player plays the same number of order markers and hence gets equal gameplay opportunities (so long as each player finishes on the same order marker number.) For example, Player 1 turn 1 can take 60 minutes and player 2 turn 1 can take 5 seconds, but both players had the same number of turns and thus the game is balanced. This is one of the beauties of the Heroscape game mechanics

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