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  #1201  
Old August 5th, 2018, 03:56 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

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Originally Posted by japes View Post
I'm kind of with LO here. It's cool in concept but gameplay it seems weird. Each round you basically pick a new figure to teleport back to the startzone despite just watching him appear across the board as another figure the last round.

Seems more believable if you started with a squad of civilians or something and did the skrull infiltrator type thing with them.

Maybe have a power on Chameleons card where the civilians can't be attacked and then at some point he can destroy one civilian and replace it with chameleons figure.

Maybe allow him to go back on his card whenever he's hidden from LOS from enemy figures and do it again with the remaining civilians.

Make it worthwhile by allowing him a free move of civilians at the end of each round...


Probably horrible ideas but I didn't want to criticize without at least throwing something out.
You're kinda describing Scourge of the Underworld, and I find his mechanics weird. Definitely unsuitable for Chameleon. I don't want to have to draft Civilians in order to use him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
I like the Smoke Screen - Chameleon commonly employed knockout gas in the 90s Spidey cartoon, and that gets across some of that theme.
I don't like that he has to use it immediately. It's going to be used early in the game before the given figure's really advanced, they're going to be replaced while in their start-zone, and Chameleon's just going to have scuppered one turn early game as his only effect. Not exciting me. I did miss that he can re-infiltrate after doing his thing - that makes him better, but he's just going to be killed before he can when he's trapped in your opponent's start-zone like this. Here are my thoughts:

1) Make unmasking Chameleon optional. Chameleon should be able to play along as long as it suits him.
2) When he unmasks, allow him to roll an unblockable attack die against a nearby figure, as though he's taken them by surprise.

Something like:
On the bold... why is that a given? There's no incentive to use it round 1 on a figure hanging out in a start zone. It's true that it wouldn't be effective if used that way, sure. But I think anyone playing him would just wait until the second round to use it instead of insisting on sending him to his death for no benefit.

I could go either way on the unblockable attack die thing. And maybe even letting him play along, for that matter, but I don't think the "Chameleon is doomed to die in the enemy SZ" problem is really there.
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  #1202  
Old August 5th, 2018, 04:01 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

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Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
I'm kind of with LO here. It's cool in concept but gameplay it seems weird. Each round you basically pick a new figure to teleport back to the startzone despite just watching him appear across the board as another figure the last round.

Seems more believable if you started with a squad of civilians or something and did the skrull infiltrator type thing with them.

Maybe have a power on Chameleons card where the civilians can't be attacked and then at some point he can destroy one civilian and replace it with chameleons figure.

Maybe allow him to go back on his card whenever he's hidden from LOS from enemy figures and do it again with the remaining civilians.

Make it worthwhile by allowing him a free move of civilians at the end of each round...


Probably horrible ideas but I didn't want to criticize without at least throwing something out.
You're kinda describing Scourge of the Underworld, and I find his mechanics weird. Definitely unsuitable for Chameleon. I don't want to have to draft Civilians in order to use him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
I like the Smoke Screen - Chameleon commonly employed knockout gas in the 90s Spidey cartoon, and that gets across some of that theme.
I don't like that he has to use it immediately. It's going to be used early in the game before the given figure's really advanced, they're going to be replaced while in their start-zone, and Chameleon's just going to have scuppered one turn early game as his only effect. Not exciting me. I did miss that he can re-infiltrate after doing his thing - that makes him better, but he's just going to be killed before he can when he's trapped in your opponent's start-zone like this. Here are my thoughts:

1) Make unmasking Chameleon optional. Chameleon should be able to play along as long as it suits him.
2) When he unmasks, allow him to roll an unblockable attack die against a nearby figure, as though he's taken them by surprise.

Something like:
On the bold... why is that a given? There's no incentive to use it round 1 on a figure hanging out in a start zone. It's true that it wouldn't be effective if used that way, sure. But I think anyone playing him would just wait until the second round to use it instead of insisting on sending him to his death for no benefit.

I could go either way on the unblockable attack die thing. And maybe even letting him play along, for that matter, but I don't think the "Chameleon is doomed to die in the enemy SZ" problem is really there.
Oh, I also missed that he can wait until Round Two - he doesn't have to use Chameleon Infiltration at the start of the game. Sorry, this design is a bit to get used to. Still, I think it's more thematic for him to be able to play along - I don't think he's likely to go 'Surprise! Guess Who!' unless it actually serves his purposes, and I think the surprise shot also gives a good idea of how he operates.


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  #1203  
Old August 5th, 2018, 05:02 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

Would it be too messy/strong to end the player's turn when Chameleon is revealed and give a free turn to Chameleon? I do also like LO's idea of rolling an unblockable attack die against a nearby figure.

Also it might be fun, rather than popping the suspect back to the start zone, to let the player who controls the suspect place them somewhere within clear sight of Chameleon. Imagine the real one showing up to yell "imposter!". That seems weaker than putting them in the start zone though, so probably don't do that unless he ends up needing to be toned down a bit.
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  #1204  
Old August 5th, 2018, 05:12 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualizium View Post
Would it be too messy/strong to end the player's turn when Chameleon is revealed and give a free turn to Chameleon? I do also like LO's idea of rolling an unblockable attack die against a nearby figure.

Also it might be fun, rather than popping the suspect back to the start zone, to let the player who controls the suspect place them somewhere within clear sight of Chameleon. Imagine the real one showing up to yell "imposter!". That seems weaker than putting them in the start zone though, so probably don't do that unless he ends up needing to be toned down a bit.

Yes that would be turn interruption...big no-no
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  #1205  
Old August 5th, 2018, 05:16 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
I'm kind of with LO here. It's cool in concept but gameplay it seems weird. Each round you basically pick a new figure to teleport back to the startzone despite just watching him appear across the board as another figure the last round.

Seems more believable if you started with a squad of civilians or something and did the skrull infiltrator type thing with them.

Maybe have a power on Chameleons card where the civilians can't be attacked and then at some point he can destroy one civilian and replace it with chameleons figure.

Maybe allow him to go back on his card whenever he's hidden from LOS from enemy figures and do it again with the remaining civilians.

Make it worthwhile by allowing him a free move of civilians at the end of each round...


Probably horrible ideas but I didn't want to criticize without at least throwing something out.
You're kinda describing Scourge of the Underworld, and I find his mechanics weird. Definitely unsuitable for Chameleon. I don't want to have to draft Civilians in order to use him.

Well I fully admitted it probably wasn't a good idea...just an idea.



My point was that it seems very odd that he can teleport from one character to another one across the board just by being unengaged and then teleport a different enemy back to their start zone in each round...also feels extremely annoying to play against. I waste OM getting people moved about only to have half my army placed back in the start zone because Chameleon somehow morphed into a different figure between rounds.
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  #1206  
Old August 5th, 2018, 05:22 PM
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Lazy Orang Lazy Orang is offline
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

Honestly, I think it sounds fun - my issues are that he has no call as to when to reveal himself and doesn't actually do much when he is revealed.


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  #1207  
Old August 5th, 2018, 05:45 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

My concern is still that, as Chameleon's opponent, I know there's an enemy hiding among my troops, and I actively don't want to find him. That just doesn't seem very thematic to me. I personally think there should be some drive to uncover who's the spy as fast as possible. Maybe he can change the Suspect's class to show them not working together as well when they're all watching each other?
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  #1208  
Old August 5th, 2018, 05:51 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

I'd say maybe at the end of the round he gets to roll an unblockable or maybe once per order marker? Idk. That would give urgency.
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  #1209  
Old August 5th, 2018, 05:54 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

Maybe a player with a marker on it can only have one OM plced on it at a time? Paranoia distracting them?

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  #1210  
Old August 5th, 2018, 06:03 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualizium View Post
Would it be too messy/strong to end the player's turn when Chameleon is revealed and give a free turn to Chameleon? I do also like LO's idea of rolling an unblockable attack die against a nearby figure.

Also it might be fun, rather than popping the suspect back to the start zone, to let the player who controls the suspect place them somewhere within clear sight of Chameleon. Imagine the real one showing up to yell "imposter!". That seems weaker than putting them in the start zone though, so probably don't do that unless he ends up needing to be toned down a bit.

Yes that would be turn interruption...big no-no
How about allowing you to move one (or more?) unrevealed order marker from your other cards onto Chameleon when he's revealed?
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  #1211  
Old August 5th, 2018, 06:07 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

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Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
My concern is still that, as Chameleon's opponent, I know there's an enemy hiding among my troops, and I actively don't want to find him. That just doesn't seem very thematic to me. I personally think there should be some drive to uncover who's the spy as fast as possible. Maybe he can change the Suspect's class to show them not working together as well when they're all watching each other?
What if the player controlling the suspects could, before revealing a numbered OM, reveal an X on a suspect to flip the marker on that card, and if it's the Chameleon face one, roll an unblockable attack die against him and place him... I dunno, start zone or adjacent to one of your figures maybe? (thematically they "caught" him trying to pose as someone)
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  #1212  
Old August 5th, 2018, 06:10 PM
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Re: Ronin's Public Workshopping Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualizium View Post
Would it be too messy/strong to end the player's turn when Chameleon is revealed and give a free turn to Chameleon? I do also like LO's idea of rolling an unblockable attack die against a nearby figure.

Also it might be fun, rather than popping the suspect back to the start zone, to let the player who controls the suspect place them somewhere within clear sight of Chameleon. Imagine the real one showing up to yell "imposter!". That seems weaker than putting them in the start zone though, so probably don't do that unless he ends up needing to be toned down a bit.

Yes that would be turn interruption...big no-no


Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
My point was that it seems very odd that he can teleport from one character to another one across the board just by being unengaged and then teleport a different enemy back to their start zone in each round...also feels extremely annoying to play against. I waste OM getting people moved about only to have half my army placed back in the start zone because Chameleon somehow morphed into a different figure between rounds.
It seems odd to me that if current Chameleon goes up against the FF, and Reed sees another Sue appear in the place that Chameleon was, he trusts that Sue more than the one that's been standing next to him protecting him with force fields all game. There's always gonna be some weirdness in impersonation powers.

He's not that efficient at bumping your figures back to the SZ. You can stop him from using the power entirely just by engaging him. I've played against Angstrom Levy without pulling my hair out, and I promise Chameleon doesn't touch his efficiency at figure-banishing.
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