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  #1249  
Old September 13th, 2011, 12:18 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by tcglkn View Post
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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Ok, Tickle, thanks for giving us the opportunity to look at your nomination. I was particularly intrigued with Point Blank, which I thought was a simple, thematic, elegant special ability.
Thanks, I am probably just going to rework or replace Noble Sacrifice.

Thanks to all the SoV judges who gave this design due consideration.
I wonder if an AE repaint would be a better choice for the minis?

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  #1250  
Old September 13th, 2011, 12:21 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
But these guys look solid () enough to give a good look at them.
Gah, I just got this. That's awful.
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  #1251  
Old September 13th, 2011, 12:24 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by nyys View Post
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Originally Posted by tcglkn View Post
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Ok, Tickle, thanks for giving us the opportunity to look at your nomination. I was particularly intrigued with Point Blank, which I thought was a simple, thematic, elegant special ability.
Thanks, I am probably just going to rework or replace Noble Sacrifice.

Thanks to all the SoV judges who gave this design due consideration.
I wonder if an AE repaint would be a better choice for the minis?
That was what I was going to use for them
Thanks Tickle for the nomination...I look forward to the re-write.

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  #1252  
Old September 13th, 2011, 10:43 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by tcglkn View Post
After seeing some of the other feedback from SoV judges, I am going to remove my 77th from the process here. I will rework them and resubmit them if I like them.
Thanks the submission, Tickle, I really like this unit and I'd love to see them resubmitted after some tweaking.
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  #1253  
Old September 13th, 2011, 11:15 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I've found myself musing a bit recently on the differences between custom heroes and custom squads....

It seems that considerably more heroes than squads have been nominated. (Certainly more heroes than squads have been accepted, by a factor of infinity. ) And my feeling is that this just reflects a general tendency among custom designers: people simply design a lot more heroes than squads.

It makes sense for many reasons I suppose. You only need a single figure for a hero, and if it's a little on the expensive side.... well, that's okay for a one-time purchase. Whereas squads require assembling multiple figures. This severely limits options, as cost of figures and availability becomes an issue. And sadly, the prejudice against same-sculpt squads just exacerbates this. (Not saying I don't understand the sentiment. When we began customizing, I too lamented fielding multiple squads of a single sculpt. But that was just a passing objection. Once units are on the field and the game has begun, I NEVER even notice whether squad figures sport different poses or not. Sometimes I think I've actually come to prefer same-sculpt squads: the massed effect can be quite striking.)

Squads are also harder to balance too, don't you think? Minor imbalances or potential problems become amplified, because multiplied over numerous figures. By extension, this means that good, well-balanced four-man squads are harder to design than three-man squads. (And perhaps three-man are harder than two-, though I'm not convinced of this yet).

All understandable. But I do find myself wishing the situation were sometimes reversed. Thinking only of classic 'Scape units, it seems there are many more heroes that never see action in our games than there are squads. The game already seems a bit hero-heavy in options, at least in our book. Combine this with the external factors that encourage custom designers to tilt towards heroes over squads, and.... well, you get the point. I feel that more squads might open up the game more in relative terms than more heroes will.

Though of course, now that I think about it, new heroes that complement and expand already-extant squads do a lot to open up the game too.....

Anyway, just curious what the SoV judges think about all this. Knowing that squads are harder to balance, are you tempted to alter standards slightly when judging them? Would you like to see squads getting more love, or is our slight hero-bent suiting the bill just fine? What do you folks imagine the future of customs will be?

Last edited by Typhon2222; September 13th, 2011 at 11:36 PM.
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  #1254  
Old September 13th, 2011, 11:38 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post
I've found myself musing a bit recently on the differences between custom heroes and custom squads....

It seems that considerably more heroes than squads have been nominated. (Certainly more heroes than squads have been accepted, by a factor of infinity. ) And my feeling is that this just reflects a general tendency among custom designers: people simply design a lot more heroes than squads.

It makes sense for many reasons. You only need a single figure for a hero, and if it's a little on the expensive side.... well, that's okay for a one-time purchase. Whereas squads require assembling multiple figures. This severely limits options, as cost of figures and availability becomes an issue. And sadly, the prejudice against same-sculpt squads just exacerbates this. (Not saying I don't understand the sentiment. When we began customizing, I too lamented fielding multiple squads of a single sculpt. But that was just a passing objection. Once units are on the field and the game has begun, I NEVER even notice whether squad figures sport different poses or not. Sometimes I think I've actually come to prefer same-sculpt squads: the massed effect can be quite striking.)
I have actually come to be OK with same sculpt squads myself. I have embraced the fact that in this Fanscape era, squads with different sculpts will, sadly, probably be a rarity for the reasons you have mentioned. As a result I have cast off the shackles of "different sculpts" in my personal designing. For SoV, speaking only for myself, a same sculpt squad won't suffer any penallties when I take a look at the card. I just know that the situation isn't optimal. However, I respect the views of the SoV judges who disagree with me.

Squads are also harder to balance too, don't you think? Minor imbalances or potential problems become amplified, because multiplied over numerous figures. By extension, this means that good, well-balanced four-man squads are harder to design than three-man squads. (And perhaps three-man are harder than two-).
In my own designing I have found that, yes, squads are harder to balance- especially commonn squads since they can grow more powerful as you add multiples of them to an army.

All understandable. But I do find myself wishing the situation were sometimes reversed. Thinking only of classic 'Scape units, it seems there are many more heroes that never see action in our games than there are squads. The game already seems a bit hero-heavy, at least in our book. Combine this with the external factors that encourage custom designers to tilt towards heroes over squads, and.... well, you get the point. I feel that more squads might open up the game more in relative terms than more heroes will. (Though of course, new heroes that complement and expand already-extant squads do a lot to open up the game too.)
For a while it seemed that Heroscape was on its way to becoming Squadscape. The D&D waves helped steer the boat back to heroes. I am fine with an emphasis on heroes as long as they fit into and compliment the gameplay experience and HS canon.

Just curious what the SoV judges think about all this. Knowing that squads are harder to balance, are you tempted to alter standards slightly when judging them? Would you like to see squads getting more love, or is our slight hero-bent suiting the bill just fine? What do you folks imagine the future of customs will be?
I definitely won't alter our standards when looking at squads. If that creates a famine of squads, maybe it will spur our talented customs community to step up to the plate and take squad development to the next level. And to answer your question, I certainly do hope to see a proportionate number of squads inducted into the SoV
Good musings, Typhon.
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  #1255  
Old September 13th, 2011, 11:42 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Skeleton Archers by Sertorius and Typhon2222 have received 6 YES votes to review (1Mmirg, Elginb, Killometer, Lamaclown, nyys, ZBeeblebrox) and move on in the process.

@tcgkln-I think that you have some great ideas with the 77th, they just weren't assembled quite right. I'd love to see them come back in another form (I'll give you a little more feedback in your custom thread in a bit ).

@Typhon-I'm not specifically worried about the balance between squads and heroes in the SoV now (although we are a bit biased so far, at 100% heroes ). Someday that may become an issue (I hope it doesn't), but now I'm just taking all our submissions on a one-by-one basis, and judging them as they stand.

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  #1256  
Old September 13th, 2011, 11:46 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post

Anyway, just curious what the SoV judges think about all this. Knowing that squads are harder to balance, are you tempted to alter standards slightly when judging them? Would you like to see squads getting more love, or is our slight hero-bent suiting the bill just fine? What do you folks imagine the future of customs will be?
I don't have a background in customs like the other SoV judges, which probably colors my perspective. I think there are a lot of folks who feel a bit iffy about using custom units because they may not be as well thought out as the official units. By having really high standards, the SoV becomes an ambassador between those traditionalists and the new creators. It might be tough for the customs creators to maintain those standards, but that's the cost of bringing the traditionalists into the post-Hasbro/WotC Heroscape custom era. Traditionalists want to hold on to all the goodness they used to get as long as they can. To that end, I think it's important to keep the standards of the SoV in line with what we expect with official figures-- different sculpts for squad figures is one small part of it, but it's an important part.
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  #1257  
Old September 13th, 2011, 11:49 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

As far as the same-sculpt squad thing, I have scoured the interwebs looking for possible pre-painted figures that could be used to make up classic squads with different poses, etc. The cream of the DnD Minis crop has already been used to this purpose by HS itself. Just for our Ibixian squad alone, I probably spent 10+ hours hunting for different goat-man figures that I thought would look good. That's the real issue -- I can find other goat-men, and even maybe some (relatively) cheap ones, but when you put them next to each other they just don't seem to belong. They would require repainting, re-basing, or other onerous edits which defeats the whole purpose of the easy-export idea in the first place.

I thought about using the various skeleton units available from the Reapers line as a single squad (with a swordsman, spearman, and archer), but that seems just as strange as a single-sculpt squad.

The answer is for somebody to found a sculpting start-up that can make relatively small batches of unpainted miniatures and make it profitable. Good luck. Oh, I guess another person will have to figure out a way to mass-paint miniatures and make that profitable, also. Hrm..
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  #1258  
Old September 14th, 2011, 02:20 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Only slightly related to your questions, Typhon, but something I would love to see more of here is people nominating other people's customs.

This is not to say that I have a problem with people nominating their own units (I don't), but I'm sure that some HSers have come across a custom or two that they think is really fantastic and I'd be thrilled to see them shared here.

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  #1259  
Old September 14th, 2011, 02:21 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

That was something I was literally JUST thinking about. If I had the ability to playtest at this time, I'd probably try out some of Lamaclown's customs and nominate one or two that I thought were fun.
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  #1260  
Old September 14th, 2011, 02:22 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Eh. Lamaclown's a goof.


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