Charos blocking a gateway - can you fly through?

[Homba]

This happened tonight.



I described and mimed the superman dive of my Soldier of the Einar Imperium as he flew over Charos, brushing past his wings, and through the gateway arch into the interior. Amanda looked at me and said, "You can't do that. He's blocking the door." Hmmm...

In the interest of marital harmony, I immediately found a less controversial manuever. But I got to thinking... maybe she is right? Charos is Height 9, the archway is not that high (it's approx 8.5) and Charos does thoroughly block the opening. EI have Stealth Flying, but they don't have Ghost Walk. I would literally be flying through Charos to get through that opening.

How does this work? Is there an answer in the rules for this? An implication in the rules?

H

[dragonfire]

Honestly I have no clue. Im curious also.







Wait. I think they can fly through it because flying allows you to paass through enemy figures.

[Ketch]

Despite what opinions may arise, I don't think we can conclude anything!
I think that Charos blocks the door, but I am willing to bet this goes to WOTC

[netherspirit]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Wait. I think they can fly through it because flying allows you to paass through enemy figures.

No it allows you to fly OVER them, not through them. Big difference.

The way is closed.

[Taelord]

Originally Posted by netherspirit

No it allows you to fly OVER them, not through them. Big difference.

The way is closed.

Nether, you sre too good.

[Grungebob]

There was an official ruling a couple of years ago that said that if a figure could not fit through any area during it's movement, then it couldn't move there. The ruling had to do with a wide creature that was wanting to end its move on an open area that it could easily fit in, but during the counting of the move it would have needed to pass between two sharp cliffs made out of terrain tiles that only had a one space wide gap between. According to the ruling, the creature could not pass through. If the EI figure itself cannot physically pass through them it can't move there.

[geddy lifeson]

Besides the fact that the entrance is clearly blocked, you made the wise choice in letting the woman have her way. This falls under the same reasoning of "Let the wookie win"...much smarter choice. I have been on the other end of a disagreeing wookie, I mean wife playing Heroscape too many times.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I would say the darned IE figure could not pass through the doorway. I don't care if you paid nearly 47 points for that figure, he's not getting through the door.

Originally Posted by geddy lifeson

Besides the fact that the entrance is clearly blocked, you made the wise choice in letting the woman have her way. This falls under the same reasoning of "Let the wookie win"...much smarter choice.

Yeah! That's the real question of this thread - how would you play the situation if with your spouse/GF

[Homba]

I looked at the flying power just to refresh before posting this, and I agree w Nether's statement on flying. So is imagining a 9 height (the height of Charos) double-wide stack of terrain fronting (sealing, bricking up) the doorway the best way to visualize this for the purpose of the rule question? Well, it isn't terrain, it's a figure - which is a bit different - think of Nilfheim's wings arching over other hexes (more on this below). But if thinking of relatively compact Charos as a terrain stack, no way the EI can fly through.

This brings other situations into focus. Imagine a Height 3 Rat standing directly under the arch. Can a Height 5 EI fly over him? Yes: The gateway opening is Height 8.5. Can a Height 6 Minion fly over the Rat? No, not enough clearance. Can a Sentinel of Jandar?

What about parts of a fig that stick out away from the hexes they occupy? How does that interface with this situation? Is there a further question here, I'm not sure. Keep it in mind when considering the following...

Originally Posted by Grungebob

There was an official ruling a couple of years ago that said that if a figure could not fit through any area during it's movement, then it couldn't move there. The ruling had to do with a wide creature that was wanting to end its move on an open area that it could easily fit in, but during the counting of the move it would have needed to pass between two sharp cliffs made out of terrain tiles that only had a one space wide gap between. According to the ruling, the creature could not pass through. If the EI figure itself cannot physically pass through them it can't move there.

I vaguely remember those old .net discussions of the intricacies of those situations.

For the red part of your quote, the (ground-traveling, not flying) figure has to fit into each space it moves through. And it was established and is recognized in the Hasbro FAQ today (see, Movement), that you need not "slide" your figure from space to space, you need only pick it up and set it legally in each space down the path. I think I recall the DW9 in that old example could not be legally set in the 1-hex opening (surrounded by cliffs) to get through the long, narrow mesa wall. (He couldn't be "slid" along the map from hex to hex into the 1-hex area because of protruding edges, but that was not the issue, right? You don't have to slide from hex to hex.)

The above concept is actually why I thought initially I could pull off the maneuver. I could legally set the EI in the gateway, and until then, I didn't even have to place him on the board, because he was flying. Charos didn't interfere with him, because the EI wasn't hanging from a string smacking into Charos on those hexes - you don't have to hang your figs from strings. All I had to do was legally place the EI in the landing hex. Otherwise, I could "fly over" per Flying ability.

For the last sentence, the bold part. You're applying the land movement example by analogy to the flying example. You say if the figure itself cannot physically pass through, it can't fit there. But,

You don't have to fly the figure in on a string over Charos. A flying fig isn't even "on the board" at that point, right?

So it's not an issue of the physical figure being "fit through" (there isn't an occasion to try to physically do this, since the fig is not on the board til the landing space). It's a question of the math of the figure Heights and the Clearance Height. Does anyone disagree?

To carry it further, check this out:



The object here is to understand the rule to resolve any issues in these situations, regardless of their configuration. I whipped up this one as an illustration. (It's still an hour before I have to feed my infant daughter, what've I got better to do than work in the 'Scape forge?)

Kiova is legally placed in the archway, not touching Nilf. Can she fly (past Nilf) there? Can she walk there? Undoubtedly she can walk there, because she can be legally positioned in the hexes along the path. She must duck under Nilf's (right) wing, but she doesn't have to "slide" through it. Can she fly there? Surely she can if she can walk there. When flying, the fig doesn't even have to be on the map. But you could never physically fit her through the space, Nilf's wings totally block it.

If you built a stack of terrain where Nilf's base is, no problem, because there's an open path. It wouldn't be correct to build a stack where the wing is, would it? It wouldn't be rising from the figure's base. And anyway, you could walk through this on the map, space to space, so why not fly through when not on the map.

Does this contradict the Charos answer? (Which I think we got right.) I don't think it does.

So to state the rule: For the purpose of flying through a roofed opening such as a doorway, blocked by a figure, terrain or obstacle (ruin, tree, etc) either in or adjacent to the opening, subtract the Height of the blocking figure, terrain or obstacle from the from the Height of the opening to determine Effective Clearance. If the Height of the flyer passing through is less than or equal to the Effective Clearance, then the flyer can pass through. If not, the flyer is blocked. Ignore parts of blocking figures (wings, etc) not directly over the figure's base, since these do not ordinarily block movement.

Under this rule, in the Charos example, flight is blocked. In the Nilf example, flight through the doorway is not blocked (due to the "Ignore parts of blocking figures (wings, etc)..." caveat.

Agree?

I love this game. It's like a perpetual lab experiment.

H

[netherspirit]

Thats a long post...

I would say Kiova's way is blocked too. Here's why - You would have to physically move Nilfheim to get Kiova out of the doorway and that is against the rules. She would have to fly around the back.

[Homba]

Originally Posted by netherspirit

I would say Kiova's way is blocked too. Here's why - You would have to physically move Nilfheim to get Kiova out of the doorway and that is against the rules. She would have to fly around the back.

If that's true, how does it affect ground-moving figs? Do you disagree that a fig could walk past Nilf's right wing to that space? We've established that a fig can fit in both spaces. (Admittedly you'd have to place him in through the back of the door, but Nilf is never touched.) If you say the fig can't put put in through the back of the door, then you're requiring the physical pick-up-put-down of the fig to occur through specifically designated "airspace" over the map - you're essentially back to requiring a figure to "slide" from hex to hex, aren't you? To move through a defined, limited physical space when crossing between the hexes. The FAQ statement doesn't require this, it specifically says you don't have to slide the figure. The only requirement is that the figure be able to fit in each hex (without having to touch enemy figs to set the fig there).

This being the case (I assume you agree what the ruletext states?), does it matter that Kiova is inserted from behind the door? Under the rules-as-they-are, it doesn't seem to. Yours may be the "better, more realistic" rule, but it is not actually the Rule, is it? We're always about what the rules actually are, not what we'd want them to be (though if they ought to be changed, we can advocate for that). Can you show me where any Rule or FAQ text prohibits you from placing the figure into the hex any way you want?

H

[netherspirit]

Originally Posted by Homba

If that's true, how does it affect ground-moving figs? Do you disagree that a fig could walk past Nilf's right wing to that space? We've established that a fig can fit in both spaces. (Admittedly you'd have to place him in through the back of the door, but Nilf is never touched.) If you say the fig can't put put in through the back of the door, then you're requiring the physical pick-up-put-down of the fig to occur through specifically designated "airspace" over the map - you're essentially back to requiring a figure to "slide" from hex to hex, aren't you? To move through a defined, limited physical space when crossing between the hexes. The FAQ statement doesn't require this, it specifically says you don't have to slide the figure. The only requirement is that the figure be able to fit in each hex (without having to touch enemy figs to set the fig there).

This being the case (I assume you agree what the ruletext states?), does it matter that Kiova is inserted from behind the door? Under the rules-as-they-are, it doesn't seem to. Yours may be the "better, more realistic" rule, but it is not actually the Rule, is it? We're always about what the rules actually are, not what we'd want them to be (though if they ought to be changed, we can advocate for that). Can you show me where any Rule or FAQ text prohibits you from placing the figure into the hex any way you want?

H

I don't like to argue rules with you, so I am not going to.

I will stick with my understanding of the rules. If you have to move my figure out of the way in order to move your figure, then you can't move that figure.