Halls of Valhalla - Old Discussion Thread

[Grungebob]

Holy crapoli, now we will have a big debate ensue!!! Jeez!!!

[shakey_snake]

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

As for previous nominations, it looks like they were not inducted.
atmospro's new one, netherspirit's Siblings of the Crown, the Indians, and TB's Knoll were not determined to be strong enough to vote in, but that's just my best guess.

Are you sure about this or did they just get buried and you really don't like them so you're ready to move along?


so who are the judges now?

[Karkadinn]

If they didn't get enough votes, then they didn't get enough votes. Bringing them back up for discussion with the new judges is valid, however.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by shakey_snake

Are you sure about this or did they just get buried and you really don't like them so you're ready to move along?


so who are the judges now?

Again you are crossing lines here. There are many disagreements about the customs but there is no self serving going on here. I think there is one thing all the judges would agree on though, and that is that your comments are simply not welcome in this thread. Take your insinuations elsewhere and be aware that you have pushed too many buttons lately and are on terribly thin ice..

[Rhydderch]

Originally Posted by shakey_snake

Are you sure about this or did they just get buried and you really don't like them so you're ready to move along? So who are the judges now?

Hey Shakey. The judges now are Reaper, ArchonShiva and myself.

Also I believe Reaper made his assessment of the Apache Riders based on what ArchonShiva and I wrote along with his own opinion as a judge. As I have stated before I like the Apache but their "moving shot" really has been done before and just as effectively. While a custom does not need to be completely original to enter the Halls I do think it should add to what has been done before, either creatively or thematically.

I also agree with ArchonShiva's concerns with the power of the Apache - see the top of page 28. Overall the Apache look fun and I like them but I also feel they need to be playtested more.

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

Judges are allowed to nominate, right?

I was going through a few customs to find something interesting to induce, and I fell upon Truth's Mindflayer, which I feel is a better take on NGS;

Sorgwen:
[/img][/i]

I like Sorgwen and agree that his Mind Bubble is more interesting and funner than Mind Shackle. There is a greater chance to see it work in the game (which is nice) but that chance is tempered by the limited control Sorgwen possesses. I am also intrigued by the strategic battle that might occur when two players vie to use the same figure for completely different ends! The chance to control a figure from afar is fascinating as well since it means Sorgwen could potentially Bubble a centerpiece figure such as Grimnak and wreak some minor havok on the surrounding orcs, though I expect the orcs would promptly chop Sorgwen into little pieces of fried calamari! =P

I do have a question about how much Sorgwen has been playtested. Given the large debate about his cost in Truth's thread I am definitely interested in just how useful Sorgwen has been in everyone's games.

[truth]

Sorgwen has played out in my games not unlike any other figure based solidly in the D20 roll. Some games you'll get more than your points worth, others you'll see his points go to complete waste. So far nothing game breaking has come out of him. Based on about 6-8 games of test play I'd say I'm happy with him.

[Grungebob]

I also had a playtest sesson with Sorgwen where I observed and recorded the outcome. The units vulnerabilities seem to ballance it's strengths. Fun unit too and received positive response from my nephews. BTW this playtest session had Sudema kicking the major tail for all of you anti Sudema folks.

[netherspirit]

I just wanted to let everyone know that I changed the siblings. I know you are talking about Sorgwen, so I won't post the card, just a link.

Siblings of the Crown

[reapersaurus]

I just want to say that I have been agonizing over this Sorgwen nomination for days now.

Ryhdd - why did you have to nominate THIS particular custom to begin with?!
You like couldn't have made in any tougher for me/us.

Archon - I need to know what you think, because there is a lot of discussion on this card in truth's custom thread that should be read.

I agree that Sorgwen is better and more fun than Ne-Gok-Sa, but then again most units are better designed than NGS.

I just think this is an example of a tremendously difficult card to cost properly.
However, that fact shouldn't keep it out of the Halls, but it sure doesn;t help its case.
Halls cards shouls be some of the best ever made.
And I'm just not sure about that with this one.
While the figure is great looking, it is expensive (Rare D&D mini) - thematically, the abilities match which is important to me.But there are some niggling little things which make it not seem like a Halls card:

Doesn't there need to be 3 blue Bubble Markers on the card, since it mentions them? And I forget why he'd be a Blue Mage instead of Wizard or something more HS-standard?
And the abilities don;t seem to be Tricky to me - they dominate minds. Tricky is any number of other trickster/subtle units, not this guy.

I guess what I ask is - what seperates this unit to be Halls material, when there are many other cards that are similar quaility/complexity/originality.
I mean, as I remember, karkadinn's Dracula was rather original, and similarly difficult to price. I know my Revenant was difficult to price as one of the biggest critiques against it.


Other than put 2 powers in one unit (which leads to the difficulty in pricing it), what does this card do that differentiates itself from other good efforts?

I'm open to seeing the light/convincing.

[Grungebob]

I'm not a judge of the Halls any more so my thumbs up vote does not count anymore... Just ignore my thumbs way up vote for Srgwen.

[Rhydderch]

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

Rhydd - why did you have to nominate THIS particular custom to begin with?!

Actually it was Archon who nominated the card:

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

Judges are allowed to nominate, right?

I was going through a few customs to find something interesting to induce, and I fell upon Truth's Mindflayer

Archon was the one who originally called Sorgwen a better take on NGS. I simply expounded. Also I personally do not like the idea of nominations from judges so you will only rarely see nominations from me, if ever. :P

Now to address some of your concerns:

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

While the figure is great looking, it is expensive (Rare D&D mini)

I'm not sure why this is an issue at all. I know low-cost figures are a trend for the Barracks but I never knew it was a part of the Halls. Bodvar is also a DnD rare mini and the Rackham figures in the Halls which include Manalishi and the Anubian Bodyguard most likely run 20-40 dollars and come unpainted and unassembled. They are also from a European-based company. On the other hand the figure for Sorgwen comes pre-painted and probably costs 10 dollars. Ebay has it at around 10 dollars for most winning bids. I'm sure you did not mean for the cost to be a large factor but I figured I should address it since you mentioned it. Plus its one of the easier questions to answer: all your other ones are really hard! :P

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

Doesn't there need to be 3 blue Bubble Markers on the card, since it mentions them? And I forget why he'd be a Blue Mage instead of Wizard or something more HS-standard? And the abilities don;t seem to be Tricky to me

Bubble markers would be nice and I think we should ask Truth if he can add some if/before the card is officially inducted. Other cards have been fixed and improved before a final vote so I see no problem here as long as we get those Bubble markers.

Not sure why Sorgwen is a Blue Mage and not a Wizard but I'm not sure we can really say what is HS-standard here either. We only have one proper spellcaster at the moment and we could still get other magic users such as Shamans who are not Wizards: Hasbro has never given us a master list of classes. That said I am also interested in why Truth chose Blue Mage for the class and not Wizard because Wizard does seem like it could fit just as well here.

As for the personality I believe Tricky fits Sorgwen perfectly. He dabbles in mind games and toys with the minds of his victims. Remember: Sorgwen does not completely control his victims but rather manipulates them: most of the time they are still themselves and continue to listen to the directions of their General. It is only when Sorgwen wishes to play with their minds that they fail to serve their proper master.

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

I guess what I ask is - what seperates this unit to be Halls material

I think a large part of my support of the unit is not only does it give players a "fixed" NGS but also the fact that it introduces a new strategic level of play. Not only does Sorgwen play mind games with his victims but both PLAYERS may be forced to play mind games too as each one tries to use a single figure for their own goals. The potential for this kind of mental play between HS players in addition to the thematic feel of Sorgwen add a lot to the custom in my opinion.

As for the costs I personally think Sorgwen is at about the right cost for the ability. His stats are a little high for what he can do and I would probably lower his life and maybe his defense to give him more of a glass-jaw befitting similar HS figures such as Sudema but otherwise I do not think he is too powerful. Squads would make fried calamari out of him easily and as you have mentioned in other threads: most HS armies are composed largely of common squads with only a few heroes.

Anyway those are my thoughts on Sorgwen. Hopefully we can get some feedback from Archon and Truth as well. Maybe people who have playtested Sorgwen can also let us know what they think of what he adds to the game.

[skyknight]

I just managed to pick up this character in a blind buy the other day actually. I completely agree with Rhyd, when Truth first introduced this fella I also said I like my sorcerers to be extremely powerful but easy to kill. I believe what I said is that I had visions Of Drake breakin this guys nose :P I like the character as well but I would also roll his stats down a bit. Otherwise nice card.