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  #13  
Old August 20th, 2007, 01:42 PM
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First of all, I just have to say thanks to all the volunteers, you guys did a great job! I might be able to help out a bit next year. Second, I have to agree with funrun and UPC on the use of point differentials, swiss seems to work just fine to me. I also think that spring thaw is quite difficult to move on compared to some of the other tournament maps.

Anyways, thats just my .

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  #14  
Old August 20th, 2007, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
Obviously, I was not there, but I would like to weigh in on the suggestion of point differentials being used in tournament ranking.

I totally agree with FunRun. Using point differential can completely change/limit a style of play within the tournament. As has been mentioned there are Armies that are built around sacrificing units for the common good (tactical movement, suckering the enemy, spreading out the enemy, etc.). To penalize someone for the style in which they play or the army which they choose (unless, of course, they choose a lousy army ) via a ranking system, is completely unfair. If the biggest concern is people taking too long during their turn, I certainly wish there was a way to incorporate one of those "Chess" time keepers to limit each player to only a certain amount of time per game for "thinking".

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamjuven
...I do like pt differential as the tie breaker because it adds a lot of strategy to the tournament. You can't just throw away units, you have to be careful.
I don't understand that view at all unless you are only talking about the style in which you play the game. I think this proves that playing with Point Differential narrows the scope of strategic possibilities.
Obviously chess clocks won't work and neither will the honor system. To debate your position, I don't want to support a style of play that has detrimental effects on the way players view tourneys. In other words, if stalling and turtling for vp base wins is the style we are referring to, I would like to use a system that doesn't reward that style. As a tourney director, this is the first year I have had to deal with so many complaints about stalling. D&D miniatures has a system where the actual tournament director can disqulify somebody for repeatedly stalling. I don't want to get to the point where our beloved scape is all of a sudden twisted into a competitive win at all cost environment. I will take the steps to block that from happening. Point differential while not perfect at least encourages/rewards going for an aggressive win..... And requires less equipment such as laptop etc. I woulkd like to look at other non electronic systems as well, but simplicity is key. It has to be able to be taken back home by a 13 year old and used to run a school tourney etc.. Getting access to DCI software is also really tough and it is not compatable with Vista.

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  #15  
Old August 20th, 2007, 01:50 PM
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What about making a win by total victory 3 points, a point win 2 points and a tie one point?

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  #16  
Old August 20th, 2007, 02:17 PM
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It was, over all, a great event, GB; so the first dominant comment I have is (other than security), "It ain't broken."

Now, events need to strictly start on time and end on time, with the start being any explanations for that event. Breaks should be built into the schedule. It may mean reducing the number of rounds in an event, but I think that would be worth it in the long run.

There were some instances of poor sportsmanship and some instances of play style differences that were perceived as being poor sportsmanship. Those are difficult to sort out, unless obvious. I'm not at all sure an official sanction against certain behaviors (other than obvious cheating) is worth the huge hassle that it would cause...I certainly would not want to be the judge in such cases!

I have no problem with the point differential method. It may well have the weaknesses that others have argued for, but it is swift and efficient, and if everyone knows in advance that that is the way things are going to be, they can practice and adjust their style of play accordingly. The only legitimate complaint was that circumstances this year did not allow people to know ahead of time. I'd say, use this method next year.

Okay, that's enough of my verbage. I had a great time, and it was the people that made it great.
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  #17  
Old August 20th, 2007, 02:20 PM
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I see UPC's point. If you use Finn, Thorgrim, and Eldgrim as meatshield/glyphs then the point differential isn't that fair. But I also see GB's point - that there needs to be some impetus to play the game rather than to sit paralyzed by permutations.

And damja's points idea may be the best idea as a bridge between both school's of thought.

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  #18  
Old August 20th, 2007, 02:32 PM
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I have been known to time out at a fairly frequent pace and I have played players that also time out frequently. In all 21 games I played this weekend, none of the players I played were purposely stalling. I think it is wrong to say that a slower, methodical player is purposely stalling to protect their point advantage. I ask that we look at the same situation with the same players when they are behind or even on points. I think we will find that their style of play was consistent regardless of whether they were winning or losing. Knowing most of the players very well and participating in most of the events, I have to say that the assumption and assertion that a player was exploiting a loophole in the tourney by knowingly stalling when the have the point advantage is a bit of a reach. This is not what I have seen. Those players played at the same pace regardless of whether they were winning or losing; that is proof positive that they were not imploring stalling tactics. Now if a player plays fast when behind and slow when ahead, then I think we have a case. I did not see that at any point and I doubt any player who complained could honestly say that any player in question sped up or slowed down.

There is an element that needs to be considered here and that is the emotional state of a player who has lost because they couldn't make up the points. One's perception of the situation is clouded by the frustration or emotion of losing. I have been on both sides of this issue and I can say with the utmost confidence I have never encountered a player that was speeding up or slowing down based on their spot in the game.

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  #19  
Old August 20th, 2007, 02:49 PM
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It is not about your perceptions of things as much as others. When folks start to complain about something that previously brought no complaints then it is worth exploring. Somebody who runs the clock out every single game will get complaints and many folks will perceive them as stallers. Especially if they have eaten up much more time than the other player. If you sit down to the table, and you only get 20 minutes of playtime, because your opponent used much more time and got 40 minutes, then he has an unfair and excessively indulgent advantage. We do not want to then make matters worse by rewarding that player on top of his excesses.

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  #20  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:03 PM
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The other side of this coin is that point differential creates incentive to not concede a game thus making it take longer to finish it or taking it to time.

In a straight up Swiss tournament, a player with 6 rats versus a full health Charos may well concede or at least attack Charos. In a point differential tournament, a player might feel the need to protect those 80 points even though they are going to lose. They run those rats away to hide so that the point differential isn't as large. This actually creates a situation where a game that probably would have been called or ended quicker doesn’t because they are protecting points for the overall tournament. Now that player is playing to an element that has nothing to do with the game they are in yet the game is being prolonged because of it. The player has clearly lost, and in no way can win, yet they are still playing a game and turtling their last few cards to protect 80 points because they may feel they need later in the tournament to make the cut off.

Is that a good thing? I think not

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  #21  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
The other side of this coin is that point differential creates incentive to not concede a game thus making it take longer to finish it or taking it to time.

In a straight up Swiss tournament, a player with 6 rats versus a full health Charos may well concede or at least attack Charos. In a point differential tournament, a player might feel the need to protect those 80 points even though they are going to lose. They run those rats away to hide so that the point differential isn't as large. This actually creates a situation where a game that probably would have been called or ended quicker doesn’t because they are protecting points for the overall tournament. Now that player is playing to an element that has nothing to do with the game they are in yet the game is being prolonged because of it. The player has clearly lost, and in no way can win, yet they are still playing a game and turtling their last few cards to protect 80 points because they may feel they need later in the tournament to make the cut off.

Is that a good thing? I think not
Yes but would the rat guy be considered a poor sport? Remember point differential does nothing but break ties....JUST TIES.

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  #22  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer
... if everyone knows in advance that that is the way things are going to be, they can practice and adjust their style of play accordingly. The only legitimate complaint was that circumstances this year did not allow people to know ahead of time.
This completely supports my stance. If it was a specialized tournament, (Big 'Ol Monster, Heat of Battle, etc.) then, yes, people would need to know the "adjusted" rules beforehand. But to limit a style of play for a regular Classic Heroscape tournament via scoring system, or any other means, is absurd. Why should someone have to adjust their style if they are in fact playing within the rules of the game, much less the Gentleman's rules of the game?

I do completely understand the irritation of playing against someone employing stalling tactics. Heck, I get irritated sometimes playing people who are just plan slow, but that is my own Pet Peeve to deal with ) I agree that if turtling/stalling is a problem that has been brought to light, it certainly needs to be addressed, but I completely disagree with the means of limiting it (Point Differential). I also agree that the notion of Keep It Simple, Stupid should be applied whenever and wherever possible, but I think that there has got to be a better way to limit stalling than to punish other people's playing styles.

I definitely see the quandry, but I don't know how to fix it. I just think the answer is being searched for in the wrong direction...

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  #23  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
The other side of this coin is that point differential creates incentive to not concede a game thus making it take longer to finish it or taking it to time.

In a straight up Swiss tournament, a player with 6 rats versus a full health Charos may well concede or at least attack Charos. In a point differential tournament, a player might feel the need to protect those 80 points even though they are going to lose. They run those rats away to hide so that the point differential isn't as large. This actually creates a situation where a game that probably would have been called or ended quicker doesn’t because they are protecting points for the overall tournament. Now that player is playing to an element that has nothing to do with the game they are in yet the game is being prolonged because of it. The player has clearly lost, and in no way can win, yet they are still playing a game and turtling their last few cards to protect 80 points because they may feel they need later in the tournament to make the cut off.

Is that a good thing? I think not
Yes but would the rat guy be considered a poor sport? Remember point differential does nothing but break ties....JUST TIES.
I think my point is being missed. It breaks ties in the game it also breaks ranking ties in the tournament. From what I saw, some points were very close.

Protecting those points might be in poor form and that player would probably be considered a bad sport; I agree. My point is that using the point differential creates an incentive for a person who can not possibly win to keep a game alive to protect some points in the overall tournament. Those points could create quite a difference in their ranking. I certainly could not fault a player who has only one loss coming in the last game for running his stuff off to hide so that his points don't fall as much. Bad form? Sure, but the tourney is set up that way. Swiss does not create that incentive.

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  #24  
Old August 20th, 2007, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
The other side of this coin is that point differential creates incentive to not concede a game thus making it take longer to finish it or taking it to time.

In a straight up Swiss tournament, a player with 6 rats versus a full health Charos may well concede or at least attack Charos. In a point differential tournament, a player might feel the need to protect those 80 points even though they are going to lose. They run those rats away to hide so that the point differential isn't as large. This actually creates a situation where a game that probably would have been called or ended quicker doesn’t because they are protecting points for the overall tournament. Now that player is playing to an element that has nothing to do with the game they are in yet the game is being prolonged because of it. The player has clearly lost, and in no way can win, yet they are still playing a game and turtling their last few cards to protect 80 points because they may feel they need later in the tournament to make the cut off.

Is that a good thing? I think not
Yes but would the rat guy be considered a poor sport? Remember point differential does nothing but break ties....JUST TIES.
I think my point is being missed. It breaks ties in the game and it does affect the players rank in the tournament. From what I saw, some points were very close.

Protecting those points might be in poor form and that player would probably be considered a bad sport; I agree. My point is that using the point differential creates an incentive for a person who can not possibly win to keep a game alive to protect some points in the overall tournament; Swiss does not create that incentive.
Let's just make sure we are understanding PD here. PD rewards more decisive victories. It doesn't punish anybody. Two players who are equally ranked will be compared to each other by how decisive their games were. The player who defeated his opponents more thoroughly each time ranks higher than the player who only manages to beat his opponent by a tiny margin.... Correct?

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