Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[japes]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

I'd say we give it 'til Thursday, and at that point, if nobody has spoken up or come forward with a new direction to take, we close it off there.

Then I think the best order of business here, before a public vote actually, is to put every fleshed out idea in the Hero thread, and give the Heroes a couple of days to simply vote "Yes, Maybe, No" for each option. Any option that gets at least 4/5 No, we eliminate it. Any option that gets at least 2-3 Maybe/Yes, we keep it in. Then we take it to a full on vote from the ones remaining, a weighted vote like the Public Design, where people get 3 votes. Perhaps the Heroes get a little bit more weight to their votes, because their votes are what will end up making or breaking the progress of any of these.

I agree. No use having options out there to vote on that are going to get vetoed. Good idea.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

It turns out Martian Manhunter can no longer see into the future, and that was only something he had in the early days:

"In some of his earliest adventures, the Martian Manhunter possessed the ability to see into the near future.[19] However, there have been scant examples of this, and it is no longer a power that he possesses in modern continuity. By his own account, the Martian Manhunter cannot perceive the future."

His DC Database said he could, but then links you to that, so that's how this all got confused.

So that's definitely a bummer that he can't technically boost a d20 roll using precognition. Any ideas? That was kind of the key to Green Arrow, Aquaman etc. being so much better.

Defensively the d20 bonus could be a result of MM reading the mind of the attacker and giving his teammate the heads up...half way there anyways.

[IAmBatman]

Took "Class Marker Burn" for a spin just now. I had Martian Manhunter II, Aquaman I, Zatanna, and Green Arrow (Ollie) versus the Fantastic Four.

The game went to Turn 4 of Round 9 with Martian Manhunter finishing off Thing for the victory. Martian Manhunter had only 2 wounds.

The Markers were used (or not used!) as follows:

One died with Aquaman (since you can only rearrange from cards you control, not cards in your army, I interpreted it to be once your figure dies with a marker, that marker is out of the game).

My first Green Arrow Skill Shot roll was an 18, so I burned one then to push him to 20 and ended up getting 2 wounds on Mister Fantastic despite Invisible Woman shielding him (fun!). This helped set up an early kill of Mister Fantastic by a Power of the Deep fueled Aquaman.

The last two Markers were burned when Zatanna absorbed attacks from a fully Clobberin' Time, 10 attack dice wielding Thing, which otherwise would've killed Green Arrow and put 4 wounds on Martian Manhunter (I rolled defense, then changed my mind, and allowed it since I'm just trying this out). Zatanna's Magical Defense handily absorbed both attacks for one wound apiece.

I never rolled well enough on the D20 for Zatanna to bother burning a Marker or poorly enough for Aquaman to bother (I did roll a 2 once for his healing, but a Marker burn wouldn't have helped).

A few notes:

8 Move for Martian Manhunter with his other stats, Flying, and Density Control seems way too much. I think it's worth toning down his stats in general so that his cost doesn't inflate too much and make it too hard to build decent-sized Justice League armies around him.

I never had a reason to move Martian Manhunter until midgame, and soon realized I didn't really want any of the Markers on him because everybody else in my army got more from them.

If it weren't for her use of Magical Defense, I would've been much better served with Oracle in my army than Zatanna. I lost a few Order Markers when Green Arrow and Aquaman died that Contingency Plan would've helped with. But the Fantastic Four lost most of a round when Mister Fantastic fell early, so it balanced out.

I liked using the Markers, but they ran out early. It felt more balanced this way, but possibly less fun? That said, the ability to defend instead of an adjacent figure is super powerful and probably needs to be limited (it should maybe even cost 2 markers? I think it's competitively much better than the +3 to D20 rolls and could be dangerous with Pod-type builds).

Even only having two things to do with the Markers left them fun enough, since I built my army around taking advantage of them. Still, part of me craved more markers and more options for the team. I'll try the Team Powers approach in a bit and see how it compares for me.

Edit: I should mention, though, that this was definitely a huge pass on fun and I would be very happy if this version ended up going. I think there may end up being a few versions I like a lot, in which case I'll be splitting hairs a bit to choose (unless the Heroes veto most of them!).

[Arkham]

Awesome! Glad you got around to trying them out.

I'm of the opinion that you should be able to re-distribute markers on destroyed figures cards, with the thought that these are based on exhaustion, and going above and beyond in the heat of battle, that marker should still be usable by someone else. So if the text needs to change, I'd say we change it to include that capability. I played them as able to be moved around at the end of the round even if they are on destroyed figures.

For me, I used every marker I had in the games played. The +3 d20 roll helped Zatanna meet the 15 requirement to remove a Wound Marker from Green Arrow's card, which ended up buying him some time. The +2 to attack was used a couple of times. The re-roll was by far the most useful for me, getting Green Arrow to hopefully fix a botch on defense a couple of times.

The powers will need to be balanced along with the number of markers available, but ultimately I think they are incredibly fun, which I think is a great success in terms of finding something different to tie a synergy with. They essentially take the Lantern and Black King's Mutant Investment markers, and open that into a whole synergy around them.

As for Martian Manhunter's stats, it's tough. In my game, he got his ass kicked. He was getting attacked by Luke Cage and Shang-Chi each turn, and was 1 wound away until he got away and started to heal with Aquaman's help. My team ultimately lost. So idk. I just want to represent the character's power appropriately. For a guy that is just about as strong as Superman, just about as fast, and just about as durable...with the capability to heal back from only being a hand...I think his original card's stats just don't represent that.

[IAmBatman]

Sounds like I was playing a slightly different version than the most recent (I posted what I found in the OP - if you can find the most recent version and replace it, please do!). Still, it was a lot of fun.

For the re-distributing on destroyed figures' cards, just make the verbiage "in your army" rather than "you control" and that'll take care of it. Having that fourth Marker probably would've been plenty to satisfy me in that battle. Though if some of the powers end up needing 2 markers, then I wouldn't mind seeing the amount on MM's card upped (and his stats dropped to keep his cost reasonable).

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

As for Martian Manhunter's stats, it's tough. In my game, he got his ass kicked. He was getting attacked by Luke Cage and Shang-Chi each turn, and was 1 wound away until he got away and started to heal with Aquaman's help. My team ultimately lost. So idk. I just want to represent the character's power appropriately. For a guy that is just about as strong as Superman, just about as fast, and just about as durable...with the capability to heal back from only being a hand...I think his original card's stats just don't represent that.

The problem is that if the synergies he offers are any good (and they are!) combining Superman-level stats with great team powers is going to make his cost giant and possibly make him too powerful. I'd rather see his stats kept down and allow the team powers to stay decent. Right now I'd say he feels 400+ for sure. His stats are almost as good as Superman on paper and Density Control plus 4 range are killer for kiting. Throw in the team powers, and he's going to have a hefty price-tag as is. I want to be able to fit in some Justice Leaguers with him!

Anyway, I just played the Team Powers version and ... it wasn't anywhere close to as fun as the Class Marker Burn version. Team Powers definitely encourages you to draft thematic teams together, but the static bonus just isn't tactically interesting the way the Marker Burn bonuses are. It should be telling that I played a game in which I (naturally) hit Mind Wipe on the first try against Mister Fantastic and I didn't find the game as interesting or enjoyable.

I went with the same armies, Green Arrow fell early this time, never taking advantage of Skill Shot, though he did use the once per game one shield blocks all wounds power, which only spared him one turn. Zatanna had the boosts, but never needed them. Aquaman got use out of one boost once for a wound heal. Martian Manhunter (he of mighty stats) rolled in this one and he and Aquaman, both with Full Life, won it on Turn 3 of Round 6.

[IAmBatman]

I'd say that at this point, Class Marker Burn is my runaway favorite. I'm not sure what #2 is yet, but it's probably one that's unlikely to compete (like Team Cards or Team Glyphs, with Team Powers and Class rounding out my top five).

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'd say that at this point, Class Marker Burn is my runaway favorite. I'm not sure what #2 is yet, but it's probably one that's unlikely to compete (like Team Cards or Team Glyphs, with Team Powers and Class rounding out my top five).

Glad to hear. It's hard to completely understand the fun factor that comes with them, until you've actually tried out the system.

The thing about them is, is that even though they are using markers, the actual system and execution is much different than what people think of when they think of "marker synergy". Most think marker synergy as Avengers, Horsemen, Masters of Evil, Suicide Squad etc. type synergy where by placing them on a figure, for the entire game those figures are automatically boosted with the same benefit.

What makes these different is that you're encouraged to remove the markers more so than keep them on, they can be stacked on the same figure, and they can be redistributed accordingly at the end of the round. It's just a different dynamic that hasn't been done before. The class/personality restriction keeps it Justice League centered, so you have the best of both worlds at play.

The potential on future designs with this system is ripe for creativity and further progressing what they can offer and how they can be used to push your team's effectiveness. Someone that can potentially resupply the markers, powers that require multiple to be removed, or multiple to be on a person's card to receive a static bonus etc.

We were asked for "Wow!" and for something grand and unique. I feel what we've got with them and the potential to build on top of them, is really exciting.

[IAmBatman]

Yep, I think this one definitely has the "wow" factor. This version takes all the best parts of the other designs and puts it into the most interesting gameplay package, IMO. I encourage anyone to try it out. But I'll try to hold off on campaigning and let folks decide for themselves.

Bats, itching to work on card designs, but knowing it's best to wait.

[Arkham]

Alright, it appears nobody is coming forth with any new ideas/directions to consider, so we can start wrapping this up. I will compile a post in the Hero thread, detailing the plan, and asking for their stance on each with a simple "Yes, Maybe, or No".

[Yodaking]

Yeah, it would be nice to get one plan approved so we can start working towards the cards that will be officially play tested. It really is too bad that we will have to wait until the next public vote for even a chance at getting MM2.0 put into the public waiting line. What is the current state of the public process? I know we have a vote currently going on, then do we also have a design on deck waiting for Firestorm to be completed? Maybe we can drum up support for a second public spot once we get a plan approved.

[Arkham]

I'm game for a 2nd PD, I've got many points to spare, and would be willing to go in 10-15.

As for the current PD state. Looks like Firestorm will soon be done, so the current vote should be wrapping up. Be it Meggan or Kang, I think both designs are pretty well polished as is, so I can't imagine them taking too long to go through. I'll definitely be doing my part for playtesting, and can Gutudak to do some as well. So the next voting, if everything runs smoothly, should be a go within the next 2-3 weeks.

I'm good for that 2nd PD thread whenever we get this all squared away. The best way to do this is divvy up the designs so we're not sitting out 1-2 voting periods waiting for someone to design another. If I start with MM, and bsBush has Cyborg, Yoda has Batman, and Bats has Blue Beetle or whoever he's wanting...we'd make some good headway. Once I'm eligible again, I'll take a run with someone else, if not Fate(depending on the Spell progress), then I have interests in other members. Plus TB has WW who could always join in if he wants.

It'll all come down to what the public is liking(vote wise), and how quickly playtests come in each time the design process begins.

[IAmBatman]

IF we end up with one of the Class-Restricted mechanics, here's a thought on the 9 classes I support, where we'd be out of the gate, and (in bold) what we might be able to add over time:

9 CLASSES
Archer: Green Arrow (Ollie), Green Arrow (Connor), Red Arrow

Champion: Booster Gold, Captain Marvel (Billy), Flash (Wally), Martian Manhunter II, Superman I, Superman II, Supergirl (Linda Danvers), Aztek, Ray

King: Aquaman

Magician: Zatanna, Doctor Fate, Phantom Stranger

Officer: Green Lantern (Guy), Green Lantern (Hal), Green Lantern (John), Green Lantern (Kyle), Captain Atom

Protector: Red Tornado, Blue Devil, Icemaiden, Green Flame, OMAC

Scientist: Atom (Ray), Firestorm, Flash (Barry), Blue Beetle (Ted), Doctor Light (Kimiyo), Elongated Man

Vigilante: Batman I, Batman II, Batman (Dick), Black Canary, Huntress, Guardian

Warrior: Aquaman, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Vixen, Wonder Woman, Big Barda, Blue Beetle (Jaime), Maxima, Orion

(I'm leaving a lot of Leaguers out still, of course, but this is just an indication of some early ones we might consider).