How DnD screwed up Heroscape

[MrCoolioPants]

DnD characters are actually pretty good in a lot of scenarios, but I play casually so tournament problems I don't take into consideration. I agree they made the game more complicated and added a helluva characters but it's not catastrophic. Marvelscape however I think is a terrible idea and a completely different game. It shouldn't even have scape in its name.

[AMIS]

Originally Posted by MrCoolioPants

DnD characters are actually pretty good in a lot of scenarios, but I play casually so tournament problems I don't take into consideration. I agree they made the game more complicated and added a helluva characters but it's not catastrophic. Marvelscape however I think is a terrible idea and a completely different game. It shouldn't even have scape in its name.

Welcome to the site.

Marvelscape has it's place. Tried out by itself (or as part of C3G) it is quite a good game and a solid way to get kids interested in Scape.

[AMIS]

Originally Posted by AMIS

Welcome to the site.

Marvelscape has it's place. Tried out by itself (or as part of C3G) it is quite a good game and a solid way to get kids interested in Scape.

Actually if Marvelscape had been introduced in the couple of last years, with all of these Marvelworld movies coming out, I daresay it would have really taken off.

[Sneak]

I play with marvel mixed into my games with my 5(almost 6) year old son. We have such a great time. The marvel characters are usually the last on the board and in my mind that's the way it should be. Marvel is what has my son most excited about playing this game with me. As a father I am super thankful for it!

Now back on topic. DnD gets me the least excited. That is coming from a DnD'er. I think the coolest thing about Heroscape is things fighting that should never be fighting. Like Romans fighting civil war soldiers or aliens fighting monks. Or marvel characters fighting Dragons. DnD mixed in with the rest is fine but would bore me by it's self.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Heroscape, as we know it today or, for that matter, at any point in its history, has never been static. Isolating any Wave, Faction, or other group of units, would produce the same sense of incompleteness, and the same inconsistent quality - in sculpts, powers, balance, bases, etc. And, if you have problems with D&D, you must really have issues with VC - with it's myriad figure sources - including those unfortunately fragile Confrontation minis.

Sure, it would have been great if the game had been perfectly marketed and produced at the highest quality, whatever you consider that to be, out of whole cloth at its inception, but that didn't happen - and, of course, couldn't have in the real world. The biggest flaw of the game has nothing to do with D&D; it's its static pricing system. But you won't find me saying it "screwed up" Heroscape. Heroscape remains one of the best games still in production, at least as far as I'm concerned.

[Airborne Elite 5]

The only problem I have with D&D is... WHAT THE H*** HAPPENED TO THE WHOLE WELLSPRINGS THING?!?!?!?! Pardon my language. In D&D, they seemed to forget the "purpose" of Heroscape. I love the figures in D&D, but I also liked the whole battle for the wellsprings too, it gave Heroscape a storyline, but when MS3 and wave D1-D3 were relased, they sort of abandoned it by putting in figures from a different game, into Heroscape. I mean, no kyrie are in D&D, also, heroscape only "original" species was stopped in production when they were in their prime... the Marro. After Swarm of the Marro, they still kept strong, then bame no more Marro and as some say and many more believe as I do, they are the symbol for Heroscape, as, on the box cover of the first master set ,there is a Marro Warrior.


I rest my case. (I'm glad to have that off my chest, lol).

[G1shark]

The only problem I have with D&D is... WHAT THE H*** HAPPENED TO THE WHOLE WELLSPRINGS THING?!?!?!?! Pardon my language. In D&D, they seemed to forget the "purpose" of Heroscape. I love the figures in D&D, but I also liked the whole battle for the wellsprings too, it gave Heroscape a storyline, but when MS3 and wave D1-D3 were relased, they sort of abandoned it by putting in figures from a different game, into Heroscape. I mean, no kyrie are in D&D, also, heroscape only "original" species was stopped in production when they were in their prime... the Marro. After Swarm of the Marro, they still kept strong, then bame no more Marro and as some say and many more believe as I do, they are the symbol for Heroscape, as, on the box cover of the first master set ,there is a Marro Warrior.


I rest my case. (I'm glad to have that off my chest, lol).

Man I just thought it was cause they didn't make a unicorn in one of the waves...

In the scenario The River of Blood, within the underdark Utgar's Drow forces actually did corrupt a wellspring in-order to convert a typical Kyrie named Valkrill into a Half demon, Half Kyrie, who became a General of his own faction.

That was about the highlight of what happened during the D&D transfer from a story perspective.

[ZBeeblebrox]

I'd say they were probally summoned through the Wellsprings from Toril and Ebberron just like from others were from Marr and Earth. But I guess everyone has to their own line of suspension of disbelief.

[yamissflash]

Originally Posted by ZBeeblebrox

I'd say they were probally summoned through the Wellsprings from Toril and Ebberron just like from others were from Marr and Earth. But I guess everyone has to their own line of suspension of disbelief.

Thats how I always saw it.

I also dislike some of the DnD styled wording of powers. I hate Tandros for so many reasons....

Plus, I also dislike the lack of synergy between them. Why even bother with Eladrin?

I don't mind different sculpts, I don't mind the storyline (at least not too much) but
the lack of cohesiveness would be the best way to sum up why I dislike DnD.

[OEAO]

My biggest problem, after playing War of the Worlds at GenCon, is the worlds they come from. They should be from classic worlds, not stupid new ones like Eberron or Toril.

[Airborne Elite 5]

I newthe 3rd master set was about the wellsprings, but when the waves came out, I felt like they left it behind.

[Majora's Incarnation]

Ugh. That's all I have to say.

Well, not really. I only say ugh because I'm currently trying to see if there's sense of reconciliation between those that have never minded the D&D units and those that radically do, through the Heroscape Wiki (which currently doesn't seem to be going in a good direction, but we'll see what happens), but that's aside the point. The ugh is not directed towards anyone in particular.

My trouble with reading these posts is wondering why there is thematic distaste, regarding the D&D worlds and the plotline, when the story was never replaced by them. Course, now it's a matter of opinion. I do my very best to respect that. But when the subject is of plotline, (since that was the reason I got into Heroscape the first place) I have to step in and put my . Hope they are of worth to the community.

The only problem I have with D&D is... WHAT THE H*** HAPPENED TO THE WHOLE WELLSPRINGS THING?!?!?!?! Pardon my language. In D&D, they seemed to forget the "purpose" of Heroscape. I love the figures in D&D, but I also liked the whole battle for the wellsprings too, it gave Heroscape a storyline, but when MS3 and wave D1-D3 were relased, they sort of abandoned it by putting in figures from a different game, into Heroscape. I mean, no kyrie are in D&D, also, heroscape only "original" species was stopped in production when they were in their prime... the Marro. After Swarm of the Marro, they still kept strong, then bame no more Marro and as some say and many more believe as I do, they are the symbol for Heroscape, as, on the box cover of the first master set ,there is a Marro Warrior.

Airborne Elite, the wellsprings was always part of it. If you read the Master Set 3 campaign text, and the other two Dungeon Crawls, River of Blood and Shadow Cavern, the wellsprings are integral to the setting (and are actually a part of the terrain set up in the battle, if you view the map and read the way it is described). The Underdark refers to the underground regions of Valhalla that Utgar pumped full of races from Toril and Eberron, after realizing that the original civilization that constructed the wellsprings held their secrets underneath the surface of the world. (a bit misleading, but when you read in the Thormun's Journal entry where Jandar describes the wellspring, there is an actual magical technology accessed in the spring itself that allows for summoning.) My assumption why it was called the Underdark was because in-game, that's what all the new races kept calling it because they were familiar with similar settings in their homeworld by that name, and the Kyrie just picked it up, and out-game, it was to draw in D&D players to purchase the game, and help keep Heroscape afloat through their added interest.

Each campaign highlights a new wellspring source. In Cavern of Blood, one is used to create Valkrill through Estivara's magic, combined with the power of the wellspring. In Shadow Cavern, Valkrill summons his first wave of forces from one underneath Braunglayde. The plot was still moving forward. New wellsprings were being found. Jandar had a vision of 15 critical wellsprings, because those 15 held amulet keys. But there are numerous wellsprings far beyond the number 15, that don't have amulet keys, but can still be used with them. The only time the amulet keys were not used was when Valkrill used the magic of ancient artifacts from the original wellspring constructors, and with whatever oomph he got from the Drow, allowed him to do the same as the others that had keys.

We should understand it in-game like this:

For 5 years the war has been going on (as stated in the Journal). Waves of Marro are now coming from the south, (after these 5 years) and a scouting party, not the entire martial force of the Valkyrie, are sent to investigate. This makes Swarm of the Marro a side-storyline, one happening at the exact time the original war is taking place elsewhere. During the progression of the scouting party, the Underdark is discovered, and while the Marro are being quelled, at the exact same time, the Valkyrie are attempting to stop Utgar from finding out the wellspring's deepest secrets. Because the original war is still going on, and the scouting party is still down south, the numerous inclusion of all the Toril and Eberron units are a combination of Utgar's planning (as he was first to get them in there), and the Generals in a hasty attempt to stop him.

The war now exists in three theatres: North (Nastralund and lands surrounding, defending the city of Valgrind), South (Ticalla and regions surrounding), and Underground/Underdark (the ruins of the ancient civilization underground, where all the Toril and Eberron units are fighting each other). These battles are taking place at the same time.

I am assuming for the sake of continuity, that the classic characters were never given orders to attack forces underground. They were already caught up in the two previous fronts. Aquilla hadn't even had the chance to boost her forces before the Generals had to make the decision to send forces underground. On a side-note, the underground setting is not new. Vydar was the first one mentioned to discover it, and Thormun and Tyrian found out secretly when they followed a passageway to what the Valkyrie had excavated. Remembering the beginning of the game, where Vydar was once Utgar's ally, we can safely assume that information had been passed before Vydar's decision to change sides on matter of maintaining civil needs of his nation. (Utgar's forces were sucking up his water sources). This is also in Thormun's Journal.

Strategically speaking, since previous units are already fighting, the decision that must have made sense to them was to get new units, familiar with the underground setting, and send them to combat the new threat of Utgar finding out more than he should know.

Plus, I also dislike the lack of synergy between them. Why even bother with Eladrin?

We can rely on two reasons, the in-game one and the out-game one. In-game, I feel that the D&D units had no time to join in with the rest of the summoned units from other worlds, and instead were specifically summoned to get underground as fast as they could, adventure-party style. (Where each unit as an individual shines, instead of typical synergistic effects). None of the adventuring races from Toril or Eberron is described as actually having an understanding of war, so it would make sense to have them stick to what they were designed for. Out-game, is once again, WoTC's will to expand the Heroscape market. It was around the moment that D&D had just switched from 3.5 to 4e. Eladrin is a 4e playable race. To make an Eladrin character in 3.5, the PC was considered a monster. Not in 4e. It was a strategic way for WoTC to get gamers familiar with the new decision and get them into Heroscape.

not stupid new ones like Eberron or Toril.

I'm not trying to be a prick. But Toril and Eberron are definitely not new. The units we recieved from those worlds barely scratch the surface of the possibilities that could have been brought in from those campaign settings. The fact that WoTC gave permission to use such iconic worlds in our game, I feel, should be respected a bit more. A lot of work has gone into building those worlds. And with the decision to try to expand the market, there was really no good way for WoTC to want to have the Warforged, a Eberron-born race, come from Alpha Prime (which thematically would make no sense, one race being living constructs through powerful magic, the other robots with concious thought and will through advanced science).

I know this is a long post, and I really appreciate anyone who took the time to read this, but this is how I feel.

Yes, I know it sucks bad that Heroscape is discontinued. I was teaching the game at a local convention, and when a family of four approached me with the most excited faces you could ever imagine, wondering where they could get such an incredible game, I had to be the "Santa Claus isn't real" guy and tell them the truth about what happened. It actually hurt.

But the reason why Heroscape was officially discontinued is not because of the D&D units or the storyline, it is outside of that matter. I feel, as a community, we should try to remember that. Understand that the D&D units was an attempt to try to keep the game alive. A choice made to take something far older than Heroscape, far more complex, and with so many options, and narrow it down enough to attract two audiences into one mass market, for our sake, the players.

I'm done. Seriously, if you read all this, you have my respect. I tend to get wordy in things I really believe in.

Once again, this is my opinion. If I have offended anyone, that is not my purpose, and I apologize.