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  #61  
Old July 1st, 2015, 10:37 AM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Basically it comes down to either believe the Bible is the word of God or not. The rest of the arguments about raising children, etc. is just used to support your initial position that same sex relations are a persons right or a sin.

Yes, Jesus fulfilled the law, but that is not that does not mean he abolished the law. Unless specifically stated (e.g., ok to eat pork ) in the new testament, the rules still apply. And even the, the issue of same sex relations is reiterated to be a sin in the new testament.

As for God making people attracted to the same sex. The original man and woman were perfect creations, but once they rebelled against God (by their free will), sin entered he world and nothing has been perfect since (except Jesus) . We all have imperfections from God's design, not by his making, but by man's rebellion against God.

As i stated in my post back in page one, I follow the "hate the sin, love the sinner" doctrine in my faith. Loving the sinner does not make the sin ok, but hopefully it makes the sinner ok.

Last edited by Retlaw; July 1st, 2015 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Added last paragraph
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  #62  
Old July 1st, 2015, 11:28 AM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Sorry, double posted.
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  #63  
Old July 1st, 2015, 11:35 AM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Why does anyone care who marries who? Do the actions of others put your soul in jeopardy? Sin is the worst argument, we are all sinners.
Thou shalt not lie is in the ten commandments.
Thou shalt not be gay is not.
Do we persecute liars? No. Why, because we are all liars. It is so much easier to persecute the few than to admit your own sins and worry about your own soul.
You choose to lie, not to be gay.

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  #64  
Old July 1st, 2015, 12:06 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Why does anyone care who marries who? Do the actions of others put your soul in jeopardy? Sin is the worst argument, we are all sinners.
Thou shalt not lie is in the ten commandments.
Thou shalt not be gay is not.
Do we persecute liars? No. Why, because we are all liars. It is so much easier to persecute the few than to admit your own sins and worry about your own soul.
You choose to lie, not to be gay.
Though I don't agree with the following, it is good pratice to run the arguments and logic of the opposite side so you understand their side.

People believe that God smot Sodom and Gomorrah as historical fact. Though they believe that God doesn't work so directly anymore, they feel the woes of a nation may be subtlely the result of God punishing us. They believe that if they let their neighbours sin they may get caught up in the punishment.

Moreover it is each of us's duty to stop wrong doing. Everyone is mandated to call child protection if they witness abuse. For some people Homosexuality is a bad as Child abuse. They feel it is there sacred duty to stop it and protect the souls of those people and limit possible exposure to others. Stopping homosexuality is their way of 'loving' those people, so they can get into heaven, and by turning a blind eye they are betraying their beliefs.

Put that way you can understand why some people fight so hard. They 'know' that there side is right and it pains them to see so many people on the wrong side, indifference is no an option. Logical arguments don't matter since the "God said" is the be all end to all arguements, and their Faith is just as strong as any Knowledge based on observation or ethical system.

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  #65  
Old July 1st, 2015, 12:11 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Wriggz, the world is full of well-intentioned people who are wrong. Indeed, I believe that most people who are wrong are well-intended, and have some sort of internal logic compelling them in some misguided direction.

I will do what I can to help them, one at a time, if I must.

edit:

Well, I searched and I searched and I finally found it. Many of you remember mad_wookiee, who at one time was a frequent poster and whose contributions - particularly to the maps we bring to tournaments - are as great as virtually anyone on this site. He's also as nice a guy as you could hope to meet, though I haven't seen him in far too long.

Anyway. In a similar thread, this was his contribution:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mad_wookiee View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
I guess that's just one of the fundamental parts of Christianity that I'm refusing to let go of: it's intolerant. It states what is good and what is bad. I can tolerate people, but my religion does not allow me to tolerate sin, and tell myself it's okay. I have my weaknesses, everybody else has theirs, I do not see it as judgmental to point them out in order to try and help them to see it as wrong.
Man, I can't believe I'm about to step into this. To my knowledge, I've never discussed my religious beliefs on this site and I certainly don't intend to make a habit of doing so in the future - but I'm making an exception, just this once, because I think this statement, right here, needs a response. And I guess I'm as qualified as anyone to say what I'm going to say, or at least, I have a paper hanging on my wall from a seminary that says I put in enough hours of study to earn the right to say what I'm going to say.

Look, I know what you're getting at here. And in some sense you're right in that there is a fundamental statement that Christianity makes vis-a-vis other theologies or religions or what have you, and yes, there are some fundamental statements about right and wrong that aren't negotiable. But I'm going to say that, when you look at the big rocks, the things that Christian scripture repeatedly burns a lot of ink on, this isn't one of them. The statements that you think are so black and white are really not all that black and white, and there are a great many folks who hold to the Christian faith that would say that you're out of line here. I'm one of them. I would counsel you to do more reading about this from people who know Greek and Hebrew, and do some reading about the first century ancient Near East culture, and try to understand the context before you decide this is one that you should go to the mat for. Because I don't think, at the end of the day, it really is.

Here's the ugly secret of American conservative Christianity: it's a theological approach that's based on fear. And my New Testament tells me a lot of things about fear, none of them particularly complimentary. I don't know what it is about this particular topic that makes certain segments of American Christianity so rabidly fearful, but I'm strongly concerned that what's getting lost in the shuffle is that you would likely claim to be about grace, but you're talking law here, and I think you need to consider whether that's an approach you're comfortable with. Please bear in mind that the New Testament that I've studied shows a Christ who is far, far more often telling religious conservatives that their proclamations of judgment on everyone else was going to land themselves in hot water some day. I would honestly tell you - please, take some time to read through the book of Luke and think about whether you represent your religion well by taking this approach. (Here's a hint: I don't think so.)

Let me make a final suggestion: drop the part of the line that says "hate the sin". D_S is right on - you can't do that without putting yourself in a position where you are damaging the person. I don't have a problem with trying to help people in areas where they need to be challenged, but you need to earn the right to do that, and you haven't earned that right with people that you don't know and love personally. And I suspect that if you actually got to know any GLBT persons - especially ones that have suffered at the hands of Christians - you might find yourself thinking about this whole subject rather differently.

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  #66  
Old July 1st, 2015, 12:29 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Why does anyone care who marries who? Do the actions of others put your soul in jeopardy? Sin is the worst argument, we are all sinners.
Thou shalt not lie is in the ten commandments.
Thou shalt not be gay is not.
Do we persecute liars? No. Why, because we are all liars. It is so much easier to persecute the few than to admit your own sins and worry about your own soul.
You choose to lie, not to be gay.
Sorry, but this is so touchy-feely and loosey-goosey that I gotta...

Why does anyone care who marries who?
People care because they equate state marriage with religious marriage. Since the two have been pretty closely aligned in the past, the sudden lack of alignment has caused consternation.

Do the actions of others put your soul in jeopardy?
Sure. 1Cor 15:33 "Do not be misled. Bad company corrupts good character." (NIV)

Thou shalt not lie is in the ten commandments.
No it isn't. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor is what you're looking for here.

Thou shalt not be gay is not.
Thou shalt not commit adultery is. Depending on how you interpret that, consummating a homosexual relationship could fall under that every bit as much as not lying falls under not bearing false witness.

Do we persecute liars?
Sure we do, depending on what you mean by persecute. Lying in court is illegal. Lying in legal documents is illegal. Lying to others is generally frowned upon at the very least.

No. Why, because we are all liars.
No more than we are all murderers("as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he"). We are all tempted to lie, certainly.

It is so much easier to persecute the few than to admit your own sins and worry about your own soul.

Sure - this is very Biblical. Matthew 7:3-5 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.." (NIV)

You choose to lie, not to be gay.
Just like you don't choose whether or not you have a desire to lie, you don't choose whether or not you find people of the same gender attractive. Just like you choose whether or not to act on a desire to lie, you choose whether or not to act on a desire for a person of the same gender.

~Aldin, just sayin

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  #67  
Old July 1st, 2015, 12:33 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
You choose to lie, not to be gay.
Just like you don't choose whether or not you have a desire to lie, you don't choose whether or not you find people of the same gender attractive. Just like you choose whether or not to act on a desire to lie, you choose whether or not to act on a desire for a person of the same gender.
Well, yeah, but you wouldn't be so cruel as to say that some of your friends and neighbors, and some people who you'll never know, should go their whole lives without knowing a lover's touch, because of an accident of birth. I don't think you would say that, would you? That sounds pretty harsh, to me.

Don't answer if you don't want. You did, after all, want to unsubscribe.

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  #68  
Old July 1st, 2015, 12:34 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Thanks for sharing that mad_wookiee post DS. I repeatedly hear from LBGT friends suffering because of friends and family taking the "hate the sin, love the sinner" approach and was trying to formulate how to bring that into the conversation. Whatever I'd've come up with wouldn't have been a patch on that.
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  #69  
Old July 1st, 2015, 12:36 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Yeah, I find that aphorism really uncomfortable, but it is a huge can of worms. So I let MW respond, in abstentia. I was touched by the thoughtfulness of the line twilkerson quoted, that “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” But from the perspective of the *other* person, whose identity may be inextricably linked with what you are calling "sin," it is no apology or comfort to say that you do not hate that person, but you do hate what is woven into that person's internal fabric.

So that line makes me uncomfortable. Though I am aware that it is used lightly and often, and probably innocently enough by many of my friends here.

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  #70  
Old July 1st, 2015, 12:46 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
You choose to lie, not to be gay.
Just like you don't choose whether or not you have a desire to lie, you don't choose whether or not you find people of the same gender attractive. Just like you choose whether or not to act on a desire to lie, you choose whether or not to act on a desire for a person of the same gender.
Well, yeah, but you wouldn't be so cruel as to say that some of your friends and neighbors, and some people who you'll never know, should go their whole lives without knowing a lover's touch, because of an accident of birth. I don't think you would say that, would you? That sounds pretty harsh, to me.

Don't answer if you don't want. You did, after all, want to unsubscribe.
Heh. Remember my dinosaur status here. I think no fault divorce is awful. I think that sexual relationships before marriage are a bad idea. I think that choosing to live a life refraining from marriage and sexual activity is a valid and noble choice. I also think that wanting something doesn't automatically mean we should have it, in a lot of different applications across our lives.

I also don't think I need to be telling anyone else what to do. I might offer advice, especially if asked for or if I suspect a situation may contain dangers of which someone isn't aware. But who am I, in all my flawed ways, planks fully dug into my eyes, to tell anyone else who they are or how to live their lives?

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  #71  
Old July 1st, 2015, 12:49 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

I understand. You are saying that someone who self-identifies as homosexual should choose the righteous path, and make the valid and noble decision of never acting upon sexual desires.

Well, I think we understand each other. As we have in the past.

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  #72  
Old July 1st, 2015, 01:02 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I understand. You are saying that someone who self-identifies as homosexual should choose the righteous path, and make the valid and noble decision of never acting upon sexual desires.

Well, I think we understand each other. As we have in the past.
Close. I'm saying that any Christian who is tempted to act in a sexual manner outside of marriage should refrain from doing so. Lots of different applications. Many of the temptations are recognized as unacceptable by society at large (no sex with kids, no rape, etc.). Many are pretty much completely acceptable by society at large (no sex before marriage, no having multiple partners).

Frankly, I'm not saying anything about how non-Christians should act beyond my belief that anyone who acts in ways that more closely align with Biblical principals will experience better lives, whether or not they are Christians.

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