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  #229  
Old June 20th, 2019, 09:57 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I agree with the above two posts. Braced Spear coupled with Impale buffing the ranged attack, is what pushes the Cathar into their A tier. They would be a fine design, and drip theme and such, either without impale, or without Braced Spear, but the two combined, while thematic, is not great for game play. It almost seems like they were a 3/4 squad and the 3rd attack die was changed to impale, to encourage the enemy to engage more aggressively, to negate the extra attack.

I don't remember exactly who is was, but someone in the C3V said that if they were to design the Cathar knowing what they know now, Braced Spear would work differently. Moving adjacent to several Cathars would trigger it only once, but add +1 to the d20 roll for each Cathar that you were not previously engaged with.

I also like my own idea of making it a 19 - 20 But + 1 if Medium, +2 if Large, and +3 if Huge. It would be thematic as well, since a braced spear is more likely to succeed, the more momentum the thing you are bracing against has.
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  #230  
Old June 21st, 2019, 11:56 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I agree with the above two posts. Braced Spear coupled with Impale buffing the ranged attack, is what pushes the Cathar into their A tier. They would be a fine design, and drip theme and such, either without impale, or without Braced Spear, but the two combined, while thematic, is not great for game play. It almost seems like they were a 3/4 squad and the 3rd attack die was changed to impale, to encourage the enemy to engage more aggressively, to negate the extra attack.

I don't remember exactly who is was, but someone in the C3V said that if they were to design the Cathar knowing what they know now, Braced Spear would work differently. Moving adjacent to several Cathars would trigger it only once, but add +1 to the d20 roll for each Cathar that you were not previously engaged with.

I also like my own idea of making it a 19 - 20 But + 1 if Medium, +2 if Large, and +3 if Huge. It would be thematic as well, since a braced spear is more likely to succeed, the more momentum the thing you are bracing against has.
Your logic works for the braced spear also because the target is much easier to hit if it is larger. I do very much like the cathars and think they are a solid squad. I like them fine as they are but wouldnt have minded them slightly bumped in points, though if I have to pick in a soldier build the 10th win out every time. Generally when Im running a soldier build melee spots are taken up with marcus and 2 squads of leionaries because it helps the rest of the reg soldier army better than two squads of cathars. As with any unit it needs a proper counter. Running these guys in an all melee format and calling them op isnt really fair to the unit because they are essentially a grounded range of 2.
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  #231  
Old August 29th, 2019, 07:04 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

So I have acquired these figures because of another box set I purchased... Which means they are now a part of my family games and I get to deal with them now lol. I am excited to try them out but reading through their powers and comments in this thread makes me feel that in melee only games they will just be completely dominate.

I know that it is against C3V policy to revisit old designs, but in modern board gaming, gaming in general and even in C3G, balance patches and new editions happen quite frequently. Since Heroscape's future is 100% fan driven and with the desire for C3V to be accepted in all tournaments, I wonder if these figures would be a prime use case for a balance revision.

Perhaps this discussion should be taken up in another thread so I'll conclude with the following. In perusing a number of C3V books lately, these guys seem to be the most controversial unit and appear to be more aggravating to deal with than fun. I can say for certain that modern gamers tend to have less patience for unfair match-ups so I would hate to have these guys push people away from C3V. Just my two cents. Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this and I'll be happy to make a new thread if people feel these guys could use a small touch up.

Last edited by SuperSamyon; August 29th, 2019 at 07:29 PM.
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  #232  
Old August 29th, 2019, 08:25 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

You do have a point, and many would agree with you because these aren't the only guys believed to have inherent issues in their design...but I believe the C3V isn't at a point where they're ready to cross that bridge just yet. I can't speak for them, but based off of similar threads asking for such requests, I know they're pretty adamant about maintaining the designs as-is.
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  #233  
Old August 29th, 2019, 08:34 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
You do have a point, and many would agree with you because these aren't the only guys believed to have inherent issues in their design...but I believe the C3V isn't at a point where they're ready to cross that bridge just yet. I can't speak for them, but based off of similar threads asking for such requests, I know they're pretty adamant about maintaining the designs as-is.

I wonder though if it should have to fall on C3Vs shoulders to have to balance again? I think ideally you'll want another team that can take a look at things from a fresh perspective and make recommendations. The C3V does enough and has enough on its plate. It could also be a great opportunity to bring in more members from the community to active roles.
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  #234  
Old August 29th, 2019, 08:46 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

The C3V does not and will not change cards after release.

Re-pricing cards is always an interesting project to me that extends to all of Heroscape, and there have been groups (such as Delta/Delta+) that attempt to reprice existing units.

If you would like to participate in such a project, go for it! But if you're going to do it in an attempt to make the C3V change their existing cards, I'll tell you up front that it's pointless.

Cathars are strong, but I stand behind them and all C3V cards as being as being a well-designed and faithful addition to the official canon.

customs/maps/c3v/sov

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make a card/post your maps

google sheets:
ohs link generator/attack outcomes

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Last edited by superfrog; August 29th, 2019 at 09:29 PM. Reason: I really do encourage anybody to play C3V units however they want, including re-pricing
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  #235  
Old August 29th, 2019, 09:00 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
You do have a point, and many would agree with you because these aren't the only guys believed to have inherent issues in their design...but I believe the C3V isn't at a point where they're ready to cross that bridge just yet. I can't speak for them, but based off of similar threads asking for such requests, I know they're pretty adamant about maintaining the designs as-is.

I wonder though if it should have to fall on C3Vs shoulders to have to balance again? I think ideally you'll want another team that can take a look at things from a fresh perspective and make recommendations. The C3V does enough and has enough on its plate. It could also be a great opportunity to bring in more members from the community to active roles.
Thanks for the feedback kakarot! Like Warriors of Ashra and Samurai, Cathars are no fun to play if you have an all melee army for sure. (although I remember @C$$ running a pretty strong anti-Cathar melee army at one tournament)

Superfrog alluded to it, but I think there are 2 groups already existing that would be the ones to kickstart such a project:

Competitive Unit Congress which I believe is still active and reviews cards for competitive balance and playtests the changes accordingly (I generally play casual live games with these cards actually, though I don't get to do that nearly as much as I used to)

and

Delta/Delta+ which, I believe, just straight reprices cards and which I don't think is currently active, but probably could be restarted (I have played a handful of games under this system, including a tournament round. Go Harqs!)
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  #236  
Old August 29th, 2019, 09:28 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

@superfrog thanks for your response. I can tell that you take a lot of pride in these designs as you should since I'm sure countless hours were spent conceptualizing them. The C3V has done a great service in keeping Heroscape alive and have certainly breathed new life into this old game. I also agree with you that they are well designed figures and a great addition to the cannon. I imagine it can feel like a personal attack whenever someone provides feedback to one of your designs since you and the rest of the team have spent so much time working on them. So let me add this feedback with my earlier feedback: thanks for designing them, they look very interesting!


@kevindola haha! My fellow DBZ fan! Thanks for the information! I remember those groups back in the day when I used to post a long time ago. I appreciate you taking the time to share that information.

I think talking on a forum can be challenging because every point takes a while to write and a lot is lost in the written word sometimes. I would love to take this conversation off line and maybe setup a conference call with you guys and other members of the C3V to share some ideas. Besides, any excuse to talk Heroscape is a good one I think!
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  #237  
Old August 29th, 2019, 09:32 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I wasn't even a C3V member at the time these guys were released, so trust me when I say I'm not personally offended. I just really do not want that door to be opened and want to be very clear that I will do my best to keep it shut.

I do encourage you to play our units with any modifications you feel like using. I'm glad you're enjoying them so far. We've got lots of new good stuff coming out soon

customs/maps/c3v/sov

how to:
make a card/post your maps

google sheets:
ohs link generator/attack outcomes

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Last edited by superfrog; August 29th, 2019 at 09:53 PM.
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  #238  
Old August 29th, 2019, 10:58 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I would recommend pricing them at 90 points in your home games if you want to adjust them. (Of course, I'd recommend pricing Raelin at 140 at least, so the Cathars are hardly alone in being strong.)

There's honestly no reason to revisit the Cathars. Yes, they're very strong for their price, but they're not the strongest thing, and changing just them without dealing with the many extremely underpriced classic units doesn't really get you anywhere.
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  #239  
Old August 29th, 2019, 11:10 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I would recommend pricing them at 90 points in your home games if you want to adjust them. (Of course, I'd recommend pricing Raelin at 140 at least, so the Cathars are hardly alone in being strong.)

There's honestly no reason to revisit the Cathars. Yes, they're very strong for their price, but they're not the strongest thing, and changing just them without dealing with the many extremely underpriced classic units doesn't really get you anywhere.
Thank you! I'll try them at 90 points. Appreciate it!

Last edited by SuperSamyon; August 30th, 2019 at 09:27 AM.
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  #240  
Old August 30th, 2019, 12:43 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

FYI, I went ahead and created a new card and pdf (including the advanced and basic sides) with Dok's recommended pricing for use in home games in case anyone else is a stickler for this kind of thing and wants their game pricing to match the card. Thanks for the recommendation @dok ; since my wife only plays with Knights this will help me keep my sanity lol!

FOR HOME USE ONLY! File name also specifies for use in house games only.
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...o=file&id=4864

Thanks everyone!
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