[Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fury in Stone) - Design

[Zetsubo]

I like the size changing ability. But it probably won't contribute many points. So if we want her cheaper then that would be the only other power. If we want her more expensive, then we would need a third power.

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

I like the size changing ability. But it probably won't contribute many points. So if we want her cheaper then that would be the only other power. If we want her more expensive, then we would need a third power.

If we went with a third, I’d prefer it be a power that further help distinguish her from Chandra. Currently the design is offense oriented. It might help if she got a nice all round defensive power making her similar to Drake 1. Could even be something like Melee Defense 1-2.

[Captain Stupendous]

While I don't think its strictly necessary, I don't have any problems with adding a third power if it complements the design and doesn't add too much complexity. I'd also be in favor of adding another defensive power to differentiate from Chandra, although I'd prefer not to see a simple Defense stat boost only because we already have a large number of units in the set whose Attack and Defense stats can fluctuate (Tetsuo, Ukushisa, Rhox, Sorin, and kind of Velkhor).

As another alternative to the defensive power route, I also thought the following ideas were promising:

SACRED GUARDIAN
After attacking with Nahiri, if Nahiri is within 4 clear sight spaces of a friendly unique hero with at least 1 wound marker on its card, Nahiri may attack again with a normal or special attack.

LOYAL PROTECTOR
If Katryn Vade ends her turn adjacent to a friendly unique hero with at least one wound marker on its card, you may reveal the X order marker on this card to immediately take an additional turn with Katryn Vade.

VOW OF VENGEANCE
Whenever a unique hero you control is destroyed, you may place that figure on this army card. After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Katryn, you may remove a figure from this card to take one additional turn with her.

I'm also totally open to other ideas as well at this point. @Pumpkin_King , did you have anything specific in mind that you were hoping to see as a third power?

[Pumpkin_King]

I meant Dragon Blood or whatever we're calling it as the third power. She could have a special attack (I could even consider dropping the SA), a defensive along the times you've just suggested, and the size change power.

[Captain Stupendous]

So, how would people feel about this as a first draft?

Katryn Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior (or Champion?) / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 6 Attack / 3 Defense

DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.

VOW OF VENGEANCE
Whenever a friendly unique hero within 6 clear sight spaces of Katryn is destroyed during an opponent's turn, you may place that figure on this army card. After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Katryn, you may remove a friendly figure from this card to take one additional turn with Katryn. (This could also be accomplished with tokens if we thought this wording wouldn't interact properly with Spirit powers)

DRAGON'S BLESSING (or ASPECT OF THE DRAGON or DRAGON'S BLOOD?)
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 5 instead of what is on this card.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous

So, how would people feel about this as a first draft?

I think champion and Aspect of the Dragon fit best here. I've never been a big fan of abilities that place other figures onto a units card (abilities that place itself on other cards I'm fine with i.e. vikings). Thematically, she'd be taking revenge and not protecting as her initial bio described. Everything else looks perfect

[Captain Stupendous]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

I think champion and Aspect of the Dragon fit best here. I've never been a big fan of abilities that place other figures onto a units card (abilities that place itself on other cards I'm fine with i.e. vikings). Thematically, she'd be taking revenge and not protecting as her initial bio described. Everything else looks perfect

Thematically, the idea of Vow of Vengeance plays into the part in her bio suggesting that her choice to save Zelrig resulted in the death of her family, and she now lives to avenge them. If placing figures on the card is a problem for enough people, the power could also easily be worded to use tokens instead of figures.

That being said, I'm still open to discussing any other power to replace Vow of Vengeance.

[flameslayer93]

VOW OF VENGEANCE
Whenever a friendly unique hero within 6 clear sight spaces of Katryn is destroyed during an opponent's turn, you may place that figure on this army card. After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Katryn, you may remove a friendly figure from this card to take one additional turn with Katryn. (This could also be accomplished with tokens if we thought this wording wouldn't interact properly with Spirit powers)

I said as much over in the discord, but I'm not entirely for 'ing this power, although I'm not entirely for 'ing this power either.

There's a few things that give me pause about the direction this power takes us.

For starters, I'm not sure I like the idea of another unit placing figures on Army Cards in the set. It already felt clunky when we tried it on the Soulguides, and I feel it'll feel clunky here too. Markers alleviate this issue, although I'm not sure this needs to be a design where we should employ markers.

The other, small, issue I have is that this makes her play too similarly to the Soulguides. Waiting until the endgame to be truly useful is fine, but I think we should try to flesh out the Master Set in other ways before we resort to that trick again (after all, we only have 8 units basically designed!). Since I feel there are other directions we can take her to make her feel useful, I feel we should go with one of those directions.

A quick summary of what we else could do here from the discord (that's not to say VoV as written is a no go, I'd like to hear from the other Pod 2 members as well.:

1) Leave her as a two power card.
Pro: Keep it simple, stupid.
Con: This makes her feel like a budget Jotun, taking away the uniqueness of the identity. Even the Velnesh feel distinct in a way from the Ninjas of the North Wind.

2: Convert VoV into Overextend Attack.
Pro: Re-use of a classic power, it lets her keep some of the theme of VoV.
She also isn't relegated solely to being an endgame powerhouse.
Con: Starts to tread closely on Alistair's playstyle, and maybe needlessly steals part of Tetsuo's self-wounding for more power shtick.

3: Letting her eat wounds a la John Varan.
Pro: Lets her tread a fine line between protector and attacker, giving her a theme similar to what her (prototype) bio suggests, a dragon's protector. She would have a fairly unique playstyle from anything I can think of off the top of my head as she has to balance attacking with protecting.
Con: Raelin podding is a nuissance. Gutting her life/defense might help fix that, but then again it might not.

4: Allowing VoV to grant an extra attack/turn in some form or another if another hero within her vicinity is wounded.
Pro: Doesn't require her to come in exclusively during endgame, and still retains some of the theme in the proposed VoV.
Con: It might not feel like enough to make it worth drafting her, or it'll feel like overkill since she can technically wound her own allies with the AoE firesword.

I'm fairly ok with any of these, but I think we should decide what type of hero she should be. Should she be a shark? Should she be a unit you throw OMs on sparingly? Should she be tricky to play, but with powerful powers? A beatstick? Endgame powerhouse?

So far, I prefer anything other than endgame powerhouse, for reasons stated above.

Also, since I suggested it, I'll toss out a draft of what the wound eating/powerhouse attacker option might look like.

Katryn Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Protector / Devoted / Medium 5

4 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 2 Defense

DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.

HEROIC PROTECTOR
When an adjacent hero you control is attacked by a normal attack, you may place all of the wounds that hero would receive on this Army Card instead.

DRAGON'S BLESSING
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 5 instead of what is on this card.

This design combines the notion that she is a powerhouse attacker (5A normal and a 3A Special Attack) with the notion that she'll protect others with her very life. The low life/defense values mean that any attacks that get to her will be deathly strong and because the life value is low, she doesn't really get to protect figures like Raelin for long. And if you are drafting her for that purpose, I can't see it being any worse than literally any squad. If you are going to spend a turn on her, she can use a good single strike, or a nice explosive special attack that could end up hurting the ones she's supposed to protect.

So, her playstyle becomes a tricky one to use well as she combines the sacrificial nature of Nagrubs with the offensive nature of Jotun and the protective nature of Varan without completely stepping on the toes of any of their parts. And she becomes a protector in the more literal sense.

[Captain Stupendous]

I really appreciate the discussion on Nahiri. While I like the idea of Heroic Protector, I have a couple concerns about how it would play out in practice?

My main thought is that her offensive potential is high enough that 90% of the time I feel like at that stat-line (4 life 2 defense) she would be targeted before any adjacent heroes anyway, even if she were just a two-power card without Heroic Protector.

Essentially, at that statline Heroic Protector as an ability seems kind of irrelevant unless you're running Raelin.

Another note about Vow of Vengeance, I think the restriction that she can only avenge the death of unique heroes who died within 6 clear sight spaces of her would keep her from being an endgame powerhouse or being developed too similarly to the Soulguides.

I feel like in practice the Vow of Vengeance draft I posted would still be used in early to mid game, and Vow of Vengeance would just encourage you to play her more cautiously while being a little more aggressive with your other heroes.

Also, AoE specials are typically much more useful in early to mid game which would also discourage her from being used solely as an endgame powerhouse.

[Pumpkin_King]

I don't like that version of Protector, I'm sorry. She's already doing too much, and makes Raelin too strong.

Someone suggested her getting an extra defense near/around a wounded Hero. Could we go with that just for theme?

[Captain Stupendous]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

I don't like that version of Protector, I'm sorry. She's already doing too much, and makes Raelin too strong.

Someone suggested her getting an extra defense near/around a wounded Hero. Could we go with that just for theme?

While I like this idea in theory, the only thing that gives me pause is the power in context of the rest of the set. Right now, 4 out of 12 units have Attack or Defense stats that can fluctuate (Rhox, Sorin, Ukushisa, Tetsuo, and a fifth if you count Velkhor's Spirit). While I wouldn't necessarily oppose a power like this, I do think we need to be careful when nearly half of the units we're designing incorporate Attack or Defense buffs into the design.

[Confred]

I was thinking about the incorporation of Majestic Fires Special Attack

What if:

When attacking with Majestic Fires Special Attack, any or all figures adjacent to ~ are also affected by the attack.