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  #121  
Old March 31st, 2020, 11:26 AM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
Yeah, maybe because I show up about 1/2 the Gencons and never made Day 2 (although I won 1 smaller tournament about 1/2 the years I show up), but also I do not have a super distinguished characteristic such as a laugh like @WOOKIE or a super casual attitude like @Hendal . With ~60-70 people playing in at least one Heroscape event each year it is impossible to remember or mention everyone.

Here's hoping things get more back to normal by the end of July.
Well, I don’t even remember everything I want to say about things that I plan for in advance. Just know that it wasn’t an intentional slight against you! We’re glad you come so often! (Half the time is still a lot)
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  #122  
Old April 14th, 2020, 10:45 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

https://castersofvalhalla.wixsite.co...b-units-part-2

Join Mike, Ken, and Cody as we discuss the second half of the B+ rated units (in accord with Mike's modern power rankings). Also, we coin the term "Scottie Pippen Syndrome", talk about the evolution of GenCon over the years, and announce a very special episode with two mystery guests!

Orc's Power Rankings:

https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ad.php?t=54867

Orc's ARV Maps Article:

https://www.heroscapers.com/community/blog.php?b=2943

Last edited by OEAO; April 14th, 2020 at 11:53 PM. Reason: Boomer'd the link... and zoomer'd his name.
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  #123  
Old April 16th, 2020, 09:54 AM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Since OEAO decided to delete my amazingly convincing argument against TKN, what are people's thoughts on he being in the B+? I think 220 points is way too pricey. He falls fairly easily to bonding melee. I don't ever recall struggling to win against him. OEAO says he goes great with Raelin so that's why he's good. To me that's not an argument why TKN is good. That's an argument why Raelin is good (which is another debate at another time).

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  #124  
Old April 16th, 2020, 11:27 AM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

@Matthias Maccabeus - ask @dok . He has won multiple Gencons with them - but those are RTW tourneys and I think the TKN+grubs strength is there is a divide between how good they are in the hands of a player experienced with them and those not experienced wit them. You won with and against him them so maybe you would know better though

BTW listened to 1/2 the podcast episode so far, and so far great stuff. I need to play more of the B+ units as it seems like some are underrated or unexplored and therefore good in RTW tournaments.
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  #125  
Old April 16th, 2020, 11:46 AM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
@Matthias Maccabeus - ask @dok . He has won multiple Gencons with them
I've actually only won one main event with them, back in 2011. But I've played TKN three times in the main event (2011, 2015, 2018). I was a combined 12-2 when playing those three armies, which is a better winning percentage than my overall main event winning percentage. Those two losses were a loss to a much stronger army (I won the reverse on day 2) and a meaningless final round game where I avoided playing the cheesiest strategy that would probably have been best.

Of course I also had a strong record against the army, but I attribute a lot of that to how tricky the army is to play for those not familiar with it. (Also in 2011 at least three of the four armies I used against it on day 2 were legit A tier armies.)

Ken saying "I don't ever recall struggling to win against him" is a bad argument on at least three levels:
  1. He's better than most players
  2. His recall of his losses is not perfect (a useful trait at times, admittedly)
  3. The armies he plays represent a relatively small slice of the meta

Ken's perspective is valuable of course, but it should be seen in that context.
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  #126  
Old April 16th, 2020, 11:53 AM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post

Ken saying "I don't ever recall struggling to win against him" is a bad argument on at least three levels:
  1. He's better than ALL players
  2. His recall of anything really is not perfect (a useful trait at times, admittedly)
  3. The armies he plays represent a relatively small slice of the meta, chain fighters for life!

Ken's perspective is valuable of course, but it should be seen in that context.
Fixed.


In all seriousness, should Raelin factor into how good a unit is in the rankings? I understand why grubs factor in with TKN that makes sense. Does factoring Raelin in make sense? It doesn't to me but I may just be the odd man out here.

Dragon Dice - (the 2nd best game there is) Learn to Play!
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Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; April 16th, 2020 at 11:59 AM. Reason: I'm getting old. My memory used to be good.
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  #127  
Old April 16th, 2020, 12:00 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Discussion Ideas

B is the new C for Rankings, the rankings system is way too liberal. There is no proper curve.

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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  #128  
Old April 16th, 2020, 12:10 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Discussion Ideas

B is the new C for Rankings, the rankings system is way too liberal. There is no proper curve.
Buddy...
Spoiler Alert!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
In all seriousness, should Raelin factor into how good a unit is in the rankings? I understand why grubs factor in with TKN that makes sense. Does factoring Raelin in make sense? It doesn't to me but I may just be the odd man out here.
It's a fair question; it really comes down to what the rankings are supposed to mean. I've always thought it was "how much value does that figure bring in its best army". With that definition, figures that benefit MORE from Raelin should get a bump.
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  #129  
Old April 16th, 2020, 12:16 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

@dok

power creep rankings...

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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  #130  
Old April 16th, 2020, 12:17 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
In all seriousness, should Raelin factor into how good a unit is in the rankings? I understand why grubs factor in with TKN that makes sense. Does factoring Raelin in make sense? It doesn't to me but I may just be the odd man out here.
It's a fair question; it really comes down to what the rankings are supposed to mean. I've always thought it was "how much value does that figure bring in its best army". With that definition, figures that benefit MORE from Raelin should get a bump.
Then we have to define “more”. Elf Wizards for example. Do you take into account Raelin with every single Elf Wizard when you rank them?

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  #131  
Old April 16th, 2020, 12:20 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

The argument that something is better with Raelin is tired and old.

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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  #132  
Old April 16th, 2020, 12:24 PM
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Re: Casters of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
In all seriousness, should Raelin factor into how good a unit is in the rankings? I understand why grubs factor in with TKN that makes sense. Does factoring Raelin in make sense? It doesn't to me but I may just be the odd man out here.
It's a fair question; it really comes down to what the rankings are supposed to mean. I've always thought it was "how much value does that figure bring in its best army". With that definition, figures that benefit MORE from Raelin should get a bump.
Then we have to define “more”. Elf Wizards for example. Do you take into account Raelin with every single Elf Wizard when you rank them?
If we're ranking things that way... then yes, we do. IMO the Elf Wizards are still a notch lower than the B+ armies in their best (Raein-inclusive) armies. This might explain why OEA1 has them (well, most of them) at B in his rankings.

Ultimately this is a question for @OrcElfArmyOne since it's his rankings you're discussing. When I do the VC-inclusive rankings, though, this is my approach.
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