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View Poll Results: Why do you accept the proposition that a deity exists?
I know God through reason, science, etc. 3 7.89%
I accept God through belief or personal revelation 11 28.95%
Other 12 31.58%
I am an atheist but want to vote in this poll because polls are dope 12 31.58%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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  #145  
Old June 30th, 2018, 11:39 AM
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As a person of faith, I don't feel insanely certain about the universe, but I'm fairly comfortable with the larger cosmological uncertainty and for what I have experienced, the Christian deity makes the most sense to me and I believe it to be reality but certainty is not a word I would use.

~Dysole, self admittedly a less common flavor of Christian in America today
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  #146  
Old June 30th, 2018, 12:05 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Oh no, the inconsistencies in my own beliefs are being noticed!

Determinism doesn't make me certain at all about what is going to happen, just that what will happen would always have happened if initial conditions remained the same (basic chaos theory, I think). Where I get uncertain is about what is going to happen, and more specifically what caused and will be caused by the maybe amounts of (what I very subjectively perceive as) evil in the world. If I could put stock into that there is this benevolent God it would free up that worry, but I don't find myself capable of that (although worry is the wrong word, seeing as I sleep like a bear and think I'd be pretty okay with whatever happens, unless it is something that is really outside of my realm of possibility, i.e., hell).

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  #147  
Old June 30th, 2018, 12:09 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

If everything is predetermined, why worry what may be? There is no maybe.

"It is, what it is."
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  #148  
Old July 2nd, 2018, 12:53 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

PBS has an incredible series on this subject and you can watch it on youtube.
Closer to Truth

I really dig this one as the the guy asking the questions is incredibly open minded and seeks out as many sides and perspectives as he can.


The website is here. Lots of good stuff.
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  #149  
Old July 24th, 2018, 08:00 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Digression on a digression. What I'm sitting and working on between bouts of messing around on this thread are the final stages of a paper that introduces an infinite version of well-studied finite objects. The finite objects are a lot like sudoku puzzles, so if you imagine trying to design infinite sudokus then that's a fair sense (even if not technically accurate) of what I'm up to.

This should actually do the opposite of qualify me to chunter on about infinity. I usually work with the finite stuff and took on this project with a talented undergrad (now a talented grad) a few years ago. We got stuck until a new colleague who is superbly qualified to talk about infinity came along and unstuck us to the point where we can now see the finish line.

Perhaps I should cite this thread in the acknowledgements. Or the anti-acknowledgements given that I'm typing here rather than working.
Well, the theological discussion died down enough for me to get this finished.
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  #150  
Old August 18th, 2018, 11:08 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

@Aldin @Dr.Goomonkey I wish to preface my response with an apology to both of you, and by saying that while I welcome responses from you both, I do not have any expectations as so much time has elapsed between now and the original discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Goomonkey View Post

While I see the logic you're using, I'm going to turn all those points around at you, even though I'm arguing entirely for the sake of argument in this post and not because I actually believe the ideas I'm suggesting.

Your definition of omnipotent seems to be taking omni to its very farthest reaches. Now I point back to Sean Murray, the creator of No Man's Sky. While he is far from a God, he could be called omnipotent in reference to his creation. Sure, his coding skills limit his potential, and the very nature of code is sure to impact what he is capable of, but in the end all of his creation comes from him, thus allowing for a somewhat limited definition of omnipotent to be viable.

Does omnipotent mean you can do everything, or do everything within some boundaries of what is possible to do? Same question as far as omniscient. My answer to both of these is that, in reality, I don't know; but I think both definitions for both words are useful in these kinds of discussions (as useful as anything is in these discussions).
But the creator of No Man's Sky is not all powerful, not in respect to his own creation, and certainly not in the place in which he resides. He isn't even maximally powerful. You say it yourself when you indicate he is limited by his skills. A better programmer or designer than he down the line easily invalidates the example.

Quote:
So, let's put in our head a God that is omnipotent and omniscient, but limited to what is possible to do and know (you don't have to try to believe in him, just imagine ). Let's throw all-loving into the mix, too. Can you get a God that has it out for some people in this scenario? Sure. If in creating people it is necessary for there to be the evil that we see in the world, then all of this can work together. If He loves everyone, then he would want as many of them to be happy as possible. If some of these people have to be crummy and will necessarily bring down the happiness of others, in this life and the next, then an all-loving God would have to have it out for those people for the sake of the many. He might feel terribly about having to do this, but nonetheless his omni-powers are limited to what is possible and this is the best possible mode of operation for him.
I think you have to acknowledge that the example you are providing is extremely ad hoc. There's no reason to believe that crummy people must exist in order for good people to exist, or attain reward for good actions.

Nor am I intending to claim that, should god reveal himself to everyone, evil people would simply stop being evil. In fact, I know many people who claim to know god exists, but still hate him. What I am discussing however, is what you mention as well: the salvation of as many people as possible; and given the attributes of god, he wants this and can accomplish this without the removal of free will. Someone like myself, for instance, would be added to the number of souls saved if god's existence were simply made clear; I would freely choose that. Some people would freely choose not to be saved. Bad people would still exist, so even if the loophole you provided were necessarily true (although I don't think it is) my argument still provides for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
My answer to this is simple. I don't think people who believe different things from me are somehow less clear-headed, reasonable, or rational than I am. I think they have chosen differently. And that's their prerogative.

I also said, however, that what I observe more closely matches with what I read in the Bible than it does with anything else I have read. The FSM makes for an easy counter-example here. Nothing about the FSM as creator matches anything I have read or observed. In fact, everything I have read says the FSM is a construct which no one is intended to believe is the actual creator of the universe and was manufactured primarily to mock the Christian God.

On the other side, I have the Bible which does a profound job in displaying an understanding of the human condition. So I find it trustworthy when it says, for example "do to others as you would have them do to you." Expanding from that, there are many things in the Bible I have found true and valuable. Therefore, when it talks about God as the inspiration and source of those things I find true and valuable, I listen. This isn't "picking from a hat". It's making an informed decision.
I just wish to clarify, because I am not sure I understand you correctly, you do not believe necessarily that your god is the better, more clear choice? But you find your source more trustworthy? Now I fully admit it just could me be failing to comprehend, but the only two implications I walk away with when reading this explanation (oddly enough) are two opposing messages:


1)
Quote:
My answer to this is simple. I don't think people who believe different things from me are somehow less clear-headed, reasonable, or rational than I am. I think they have chosen differently. And that's their prerogative.
If they are not less reasonable or rational in this respect, then reason and rationality have nothing to do with it, and hence it is, in fact, a pick out of the hat.


Or....


2)
Quote:
On the other side, I have the Bible which does a profound job in displaying an understanding of the human condition. So I find it trustworthy when it says, for example "do to others as you would have them do to you." Expanding from that, there are many things in the Bible I have found true and valuable. Therefore, when it talks about God as the inspiration and source of those things I find true and valuable, I listen. This isn't "picking from a hat". It's making an informed decision.

If you are making an informed decision, then there is rational and reason behind it, and hence, people have reasoned less well and clear headed than you.

Quote:
Can I ask you a question? What is the source of your decision to choose vanilla or chocolate?
Always open for good questions.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I certainly can say past experience and knowledge, and I am happy to say so. But then what differentiates the time I choose vanilla vs. the time I choose chocolate? Like I said, I'm very unsure about determinism and hesitant to engage it beyond the scope of existential belief.

I would also amend where I said belief is not a choice when I originally responded to this,
Quote:
I think that you would say that anything that someone accepts as real (or unreal) from generally available information (google, et al) or from personal experience, is “knowledge”, as opposed to belief. I also think you have a much lower barrier for what you consider to be knowledge than I do. From my perspective, you seem to use belief and knowledge somewhat interchangeably. If I correctly understand your position that belief is not a choice, then all belief is determined by knowledge and could be considered to be some sort of offshoot of knowledge. In that calculation, belief is nothing more than projecting the future on the basis of the present and past.
I think whether or not I choose to believe if you are able to juggle or not, while partially informed by knowledge, is a choice provided I have never before seen you juggle. Now this is, of course, as explained earlier, different than existential belief.

I wish to offer two rebuttals to the idea that existential belief is not deterministic:

1) If belief is a choice, was Lucifer robbed of freewill by knowing god existed?

2) Allow me to provide an analogy. Imagine you go skiing. This was a choice you made, along with what skis you used, which mountain you skied at .etc. However, when skiing you happen to get caught up in avalanche. Was the choice yours to get caught in the avalanche? Or was it merely an undeniable product of your choices? In the same way you can make choices in life (such as to take a math class, a philosophy class, or going skiing) and then arrive upon a deterministic event (2+2=4, god does or does not exist, or getting hit by an avalanche).

Quote:
~Aldin, more of a mint chip guy
Do you not find that mint chip tastes like toothpaste?

Once again, I apologize for having taken so long to respond, and I understand that having done so twice has its implications.

~JS
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  #151  
Old August 20th, 2018, 12:32 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

@JS

I don't think I see human beings and decision making the same way you do. I don't really think of rationality as something that exists in fine gradations with each individual either a little more rational or a little less rational than the person standing next to them. In my book, anyone who can generally be trusted to make reasonable decisions is rational. I'd put something over 95% of all adults into that category.

I recognize that pretty much all of those rational people will make poor choices over time. I know I certainly make poor choices from time to time. The fact that people are generally reasonable and sometimes make poor choices is part of what I think of as being human. It is simply the state that pretty much every adult I know lives in.

Doesn't that do a pretty good job of describing the world you see around you - lots of people who are fully capable of living their lives making a bunch of decisions that are different from the ones you would make? Does it seem more likely to you that it is a function of everyone being either more or less rational than you, or does it seem more likely it is simply the result of different people being different?

For me, I accept that it is different people being different and I respect their right to make those choices without it forcing any sort of judgment from me about who they are as a person. And make no mistake, that is the result of the method you propose. If everyone is either more or less rational than you, you are making value judgments about how "good" of a person someone is based on their decisions relative to your understanding of them. You make yourself the ultimate adjudicator of right and wrong. Seems like an awfully heavy burden to me. I prefer to accept others as my full equals even when I disagree with decisions they have made.

Do I think my choice of God is better than choosing "not God"? Absolutely. But that doesn't make me better, smarter, cleverer, more clear-headed, or anything than the person who chooses "not God". They have their reasons and I respect that. Given the opportunity, I am happy to discuss those differences with the hope of showing them how wonderful the choice of God is, but that isn't the same thing as rejecting their ability to reason because they are in a different place from me with respect to that belief.

As for the rest...

Quickly (so I don't go crazy wondering if we are talking about the same thing), let's define "existential belief", which is a term that has nothing to do with existentialism and with which I've been struggling a bit just because my brain wants to tell me that it does. If I understand you correctly "existential belief" is any belief a person holds based on their interpretation of such overwhelming evidence that is becomes impossible in their minds not to hold that belief. e.g. Aldin interacts on a daily basis with his wife of 23 years, his belief in her existence is existential belief.

And on to your numbered entries: Boy do you open fun cans of worms. I'm not convinced whether or not the angels (including Lucifer) have free will. I don't think that's particularly clear from the Bible. It is clear that they are not human, were not created in God's image and do not take part in being redeemed. Anything I said beyond that would be pure speculation.

Your #2 has a correlation/causation problem. Getting caught up in the avalanche was only correlated to my choices, it isn't in any way a product of them. I'm really not entirely clear on where you were going with these. It seems you may be allowing for non-deterministic choice, but I'm not certain. Can you clarify?

~Aldin, still getting notifications

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  #152  
Old August 20th, 2018, 02:41 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

I got a quick line of questions for you Aldin.
Did Jesus teach from the Bible?
If so it was obviously the Old Testament correct?
If that is the case, then why is the New Testament even necessary? I mean if the Old was good enough for Jesus and his followers went to Heaven what is the point of the New Testament and who exactly decided that it is the word of God?

What purpose does the Church provide if one can go to Heaven without attending Church or is that not possible? Is Church the gateway to Heaven?


@ollie I wish I had the intellect to understand your paper.
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  #153  
Old August 20th, 2018, 03:53 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
I got a quick line of questions for you Aldin.
I want to preface all these answers with the comment that there straightforward answers to these questions and there are complex answers to these questions. I will be treating everything as straightforward for my response with a willingness to explore in greater detail if desired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Did Jesus teach from the Bible?
Yes, often with insight and interpretation which was very unexpected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
If so it was obviously the Old Testament correct?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
If that is the case, then why is the New Testament even necessary? I mean if the Old was good enough for Jesus and his followers went to Heaven what is the point of the New Testament and who exactly decided that it is the word of God?
Imagine Christianity as a house. The Old Testament in this analogy is exploring the house on a dark night with flashlights. The New Testament turns on the lights.

Christians believe that the teachings of Jesus were necessary to more fully understand the teachings of the Old Testament and also that the death and resurrection of Jesus were necessary to fulfill the promise of the Old Testament. They further believe that a group known as the apostles were given "God-breathed" inspiration to write letters to the early churches containing true instruction for how to live as Christians.

One way Jesus's teachings turned the traditional understanding on its head is by transforming an Old Testament of "don't" into a New Testament of "do". The ten commandments were primarily a list of thou shalt nots - don't murder, don't steal, don't create false idols, etc. When the religious teachers asked Jesus which commandment was the most important, instead of picking one of the ten, He went elsewhere in the Old Testament, saying "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength." And appended a second "Love your neighbor as yourself". He said that everything else hung on those two commandments. It was a revolutionary way of thinking. Instead of a list of what to avoid, He basically taught we should try to always do what is most right as best we understand it.

There was a great deal of agreement in the early church as to which of the books were "God-breathed", but it isn't possible to point to some one event as the place where specific people decided on specific books. The council of Nicea is often referred to as the moment when the New Testament in its final form was accepted, but as far as I know that is not proven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
What purpose does the Church provide if one can go to Heaven without attending Church or is that not possible? Is Church the gateway to Heaven?
So I'm not sure what the term "the Church" means to you. For me, "the church" is simply a group of Christians who regularly gather together to learn more about God and to share life with each other. The idea is that when someone is hurting, you help them out. When someone is celebrating, you celebrate with them. If someone is looking for a friend to come alongside of them for encouragement, we do that. We share concerns together so that more people can all be talking to God in prayer about the same needs. We talk about stuff like this, to try to understand more about who God is and how we can be closer to Him. It's a big, extended family.

The only gateway to Heaven is accepting the free gift of salvation. It is a process of acknowledging we are separated from God by our sin, that there is nothing we can do to be perfect, and that death is the result of that separation. We accept that Jesus, the Son of God, was perfect and paid the price for the sin that separates us from God. And we accept that sacrifice for us by acknowledging that sin, that sacrifice, and asking God to accept us into His family by covering our sin with that sacrifice.

That's it. If we ask, He accepts. That's all the gateway there ever is. The Bible recommends spending time with other believers for all the reasons I mentioned above, but it isn't part of actually going to Heaven.

~Aldin, trying for simply

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  #154  
Old August 20th, 2018, 04:09 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Thank you.

So basically, nearly every aspect of the religion is unnecessary as long as you accept Jesus?
No need to attend Church, tithe, read the Bible or even try to be a good person since we are all sinners anyway. Simply accept Jesus, go to Heaven?

Do the priests that sexually abuse children go to Heaven because they choose Jesus and the native living in the Amazon rain forest does not because he has never heard of Jesus?

If the native does get to go to Heaven then telling him about Jesus opens up a path to Hell that never existed before that knowledge?
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  #155  
Old August 20th, 2018, 04:23 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

@Tornado How do you treat the people you love?

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
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  #156  
Old August 20th, 2018, 04:25 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

With loyalty. Why?
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