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  #73  
Old November 4th, 2020, 05:35 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

I think I spend less time thinking about "how to make this hard to play" than some. I do want there to be at least two places to put "active" OMs most of the time, but I ignore even that sometimes. Both of my more recent TKN armies had a pretty weak alternative OM.

My main thought process is just thinking about potential matchups and whether my army is unusually good or unusually bad in specific matchups. My goal is to avoid unbalanced matchups as much as possible and be left with something that's kinda good against a lot of things. I am also looking to avoid reliance on particularly high-variance figures.

If I succeed in this, then it means fewer of my games will be decided by matchups or dice, and more will come down to quality of play.
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  #74  
Old November 5th, 2020, 11:43 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

For me, I do spend time thinking about my army but it's probably unnecessary in the context of actual success in Reverse the Whip. I just like using the format as an excuse to come up with an army that I think is fresh and introduces interesting concepts. But I guess that's just because Gencon is a high profile event, for smaller Reverse the Whip events I usually just break out something simple or something I've played before.

Like for example this year in Online Con Reverse the Whip I wanted to see if I could make the Arrow Grut + Deathchaser hybrid build work, previous year at Gencon I wanted to put X17 + Theracus combo on the map and use Deathchasers without Raelin, and year before that I was playing a shell build with Raelin backed Tagawa Samurai Archers as a ranged screen for high offense pieces (Knights x1, MacDirk, and Syvarris). There is usually not a mastermind strategy for how I come up with these builds. Mostly just random brainstorming of figures that could fit together, and most of it does not work. I usually just play a couple test games with my dad and find something I like and maybe make a small adjustment to it from my initial idea to make it click. But once I come up with the build I like I spend too much time thinking about how awesome it will be.

I agree with dok that the most important thing is having something you're familiar with, that has smooth matchups, a decently high skill cap, and no high variance figures. I don't think you need to spend a lot of time doing that. You can probably play Spiders with Wyverns every time and dok can probably play TKN and Nagrubs every time without thinking too much about army selection and you'll both have a lot of success.
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  #75  
Old November 6th, 2020, 01:50 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

That Arrow Grut/Deathchaser hybrid army was super cool.
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  #76  
Old November 6th, 2020, 03:36 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

When going RtW, or any format where my opponent can play my army, I generally try to tone my army down. It'll still be easy enough to manage (I'm not a great player by any stretch of imagination), but not something like Heavies + Grimnak.

Also, because I'm wicked busy, I generally wait until the week or night before to start building my armies.

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  #77  
Old November 6th, 2020, 05:09 PM
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I do the Moltenclaw
Edit: I guess to make my comment more relevant and on topic, the few years I went I had great success Day 1 (prior to alternating RTW) with Moltenclaw and increasingly smaller pods of Greenscales. It was definitely too strong for Day 2, a lesson I didn't fully learn until my last year at the Con, but in terms of prep it was based on me having more experience (even if slightly) with a specific (and mostly unused) figure in a already-good archetype

Mimring>Krug. 'Nuff said.

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  #78  
Old December 20th, 2020, 08:27 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

So after some thought over the past few months, I think the best way to categorize Splash is this:

Splash includes subtypes of Pod and Toolbox. Pod is largely what Nathan plays (and what most of the Splash armies in the OP are). Both are types of Splash armies, but both are played and built differently. This is mostly just terminological, but it makes a lot more sense imo.

And Pod doesn't always have to be Splash, but Pods in main event are usually Splash.
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  #79  
Old January 4th, 2021, 12:11 AM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
So after some thought over the past few months, I think the best way to categorize Splash is this:

Splash includes subtypes of Pod and Toolbox. Pod is largely what Nathan plays (and what most of the Splash armies in the OP are). Both are types of Splash armies, but both are played and built differently. This is mostly just terminological, but it makes a lot more sense imo.

And Pod doesn't always have to be Splash, but Pods in main event are usually Splash.
Is this suppose to be like a Johnny, Timmy, Spike thing?

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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  #80  
Old January 4th, 2021, 12:54 AM
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Nope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
So after some thought over the past few months, I think the best way to categorize Splash is this:

Splash includes subtypes of Pod and Toolbox. Pod is largely what Nathan plays (and what most of the Splash armies in the OP are). Both are types of Splash armies, but both are played and built differently. This is mostly just terminological, but it makes a lot more sense imo.

And Pod doesn't always have to be Splash, but Pods in main event are usually Splash.
Is this suppose to be like a Johnny, Timmy, Spike thing?
Johnny/Jenny, Timmy/Tammy, and Spike are indicative of play styles used for designed MTG cards and what a person enjoys playing. These are specifically about the army themselves.

~Dysole, who for the non-MTG initiates will briefly explain (Tammy/Timmy gets most enjoyment out of the social aspect of the game and big flashy effects, Johnny/Jenny gets the most enjoyment out of personal expression and is the type to most likely try to win with something off the beaten path, Spike gets the most enjoyment out of competing and playing something competitive to its maximum skill level)
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  #81  
Old June 15th, 2021, 01:40 AM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Gave this thread its first major update since pre-Gencon 2018. Three years of RtW armies added (Gencon 2018, Gencon 2019, Online Con 2020). Slight updates to the blurbs about each archetype to more accurately reflect my current thoughts. Also put all of the armies for each archetype in spoilers to make the first post more readable.

Overall I think I was pretty on the mark back then. Most of what I did was fill armies that had success into the archetypes I'd already written about. Tons more Splash builds. A few examples of Short but Good armies having success. Success for Bread and Butter and Ping armies at OnlineCon last summer. A different person having success on the Gladblast.

The only new archetype that I added was "Figures You Personally Are Very Good At" for ISB3 on Cutters, dok on Nagrubs, and Matthias on Spiders. I think those players' continued success with those mechanically intensive figures is notable so I wanted to call it out.
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  #82  
Old June 15th, 2021, 06:39 AM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

The mini-steamroller was better than I thought it would be. You have so few figures and your Capuans are so precious, thereís obviously that hurdle. But a lot of people bring pretty fragile, hard OM-management builds to RtW and the mini-streamroller can really punish that. The wound glyph is a demon for it though, if I had 20pt. for Marcu that would have been so relieving (or even a 10pt. ninja at least buys me another round). Iíd definitely keep my eye on it in a 480pt. setting where you add MW.

Iím also surprised with the low frequency of the Short but Good archetype. Thereís not really a reason why it wouldnít be effective, you just need to calibrate properly. I guess a lot of people are afraid to face really good stuff even if itís in low numbers? Or once they opt for the under-points road, they donít know how much points under to play? I think I might try this one for ScapeCon, the army Iíve currently been testing seems a little too strong...
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  #83  
Old June 15th, 2021, 10:46 AM
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Quality vs quantity

I think you don't see short but good as much because most people know how to play those good armies so it tends to feel like less of an edge than when you're playing the weird mixes I or OEAO or IS have or one of the I'm good with this figure armies. There's also a couple examples that have been left out like Johnny Frisbee with Heavies x3 Tornak Ornak 2019 that made day 2, and some of the glad/blast builds feel that way.

~Dysole, informationally
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  #84  
Old June 15th, 2021, 12:03 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Wasn't the 2019 point total 410? Ornak Tornak Heavies x3 is 410 points. Unless your point is that Ornak and Tornak are bad figures that eat up your points, which is fair, but I think it's more of a Mediocre but Whole army. Different than the other Mediocre but Whole armies since Tornak and Ornak are the mediocre ones, not the bonding squad.

dok's 2019 Gladblast could definitely be classed as Short but Good though. Swarm Raelin and Kumiko just spend points there. Truly, many of these armies can be classed as other archetypes, but I'm trying to pick the most defining attribute for each army. If you're going to class playing suboptimal figures to spend points as Short but Good, a lot of RtW armies could fall in the category. There's a gradient of:

Actually playing light
Playing figures who truly waste points and do nothing (Matthias's 2018 Hato)
Figures who waste a lot of points but situationally can do something (Vegie 2019 X17 + Theracus)
------------------
Bad figures who you need to do some things but are under no impression that they'll be killing their points' worth (ISB3 2018 Agent Carr + Dund, dok 2019 SotM Raelin + Kumiko)
Playing mediocre figures who you think can probably carry about their points worth in an RtW meta, with support from some good options that help them (the entire Mediocre but Whole archetype)

To me, the short but good archetypes ends at the dotted line, and then it just becomes other RtW army making strategies, that often involve spending points suboptimally.

Last edited by vegietarian18; June 15th, 2021 at 04:42 PM.
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