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  #121  
Old June 24th, 2013, 02:10 PM
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Re: Arch-Vile's Customs: Arctorus Adventurer

You underestimate just how easy these are to throw together (once you've got the picture, at least).



Enjoy your testing! Good changes, I think; for a guy like this mechanics trump the finnicks of theme.
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  #122  
Old June 24th, 2013, 02:23 PM
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Re: Arch-Vile's Customs: Arctorus Adventurer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
After some thought and lots of games, I have modified the Cover Shot power on Pavin Nahz slightly.
Quote:
COVER SHOT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 8. Attack 1. Choose a non-adjacent figure to attack. After attacking an opponent's figure with Cover Shot Special Attack, you may move 3 other non-flying Unique Heroes you control up to 4 spaces each. Figures moved with Cover Shot Special Attack never take leaving engagement attacks.
Laying down cover fire for a flying figure is already iffy thematically, but gameplay was the main reason I made this change. Marcu Esenwein is too strong with this power, because he can reach a glyph in two turns without an Eternal Hatred roll. Additionally, it allows you to move up Raelin without an Order Marker and move up another hero. In all, it wasn't too much for the game to handle but it ruined the point of the design. Limiting Cover Shot to non-flying Unique Heroes drives in the goal of this design: build a hero-heavy army and have fun. He's not really a competitive figure, but building armies around Pavin is fun and he helps hero-only builds out. Getting lots of attacks is the problem, so pairing lots of heroes with Pavin and the Krav (or Q9, Q10, etc.) is still a good idea. Raelin is still good in Pavin builds, but now she isn't broken.

With this change I have dropped the points to 45 as well, since Pavin hasn't had a great win record so far without the powerful Raelin + Marcu combination. I'd consider dropping him lower, but overall the 40-point options are a touch below Pavin's worth and the 50-point options are a tad above, so 45 fits him well. I won't trouble Johnny for a new card just yet, since I'm going to continue testing (though I don't expect to run into any more problems). I just wanted to offer an update for anyone interested.
So is it broken just when a figure flies, because I'm just not sure I follow what is broken about this custom. If that is what the problem is could you have a clause where a figure who possesses the flying power can choose to walk rather then fly? I'm just trying to figure out what's broken here.

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  #123  
Old June 24th, 2013, 02:26 PM
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Re: Arch-Vile's Customs: Arctorus Adventurer

I think it's more an issue of intent - the point of this guy was to provide some movement support for heroes, not free set-up for Raelin or an easy Glyph. The non-flying clause just eliminates a lot of the support units that don't need the help.
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  #124  
Old June 24th, 2013, 03:07 PM
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Arch-vile Arch-vile is offline
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Re: Arch-Vile's Customs: Arctorus Adventurer

The problem is that Raelin and Marcu are already very good units. When you give both free movement, you remove the one thing that balances them (Raelin gives a fantastic aura, but you must spend an Order Marker to move her, and Marcu is extremely cheap but can turn on your own team). Allowing those two heroes to benefit from Cover Shot limits Pavin where his best armies are with Raelin and Marcu.

Johnny said it for me, and in many less words. Was it too powerful or broken? Not really, because it required a 50 point investment into Pavin. But it betrayed the intent of my design: to make hero-heavy builds more feasible. Removing Raelin and Marcu from the pool allows other heroes into the mix, which IMO makes for more fun gameplay. Of course, this is at the expense of some heroes like Saylind, Concan, etc. who could use a little help.
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  #125  
Old June 27th, 2013, 02:05 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's Customs: revising Pavin Nahz

Okay, one SoV nomination down, and it's revising time! Thanks to the SoV judges for the great feedback. I won't be able to please everyone, but hopefully I can make something work.
Spoiler Alert!

Summary of the reviews: Caps thought squad and common hero figures should be able to move as well. Nyys did not like that huge figures could move. Superfrog wanted a small/medium restriction. Super Bogue thought it was a theme break that figures across the battlefield could be moved by a single shot.

Lots of people had concerns that Pavin would be too powerful. I started testing Pavin at 60 points, and since dropping to 45 he has still come off on the weaker end. Movement is only so helpful. Adding a clear sight or space restriction to Cover Shot movement only serves to weaken an already weak unit.

I'm going to add a "small, medium, or large" restriction to Cover Shot movement, but I still don't want to include squads and common heroes to the power. I could be persuaded, but I'll give my reasons against adding them. Worrisome combinations with Pavin Nahz if all figures can be moved with Cover Shot:
Spoiler Alert!

COVER SHOT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 8. Attack 1. Choose a non-adjacent figure to attack. After attacking an opponent's figure with Cover Shot Special Attack, you may move 3 other non-flying small, medium, or large Unique Heroes you control up to 4 spaces each. Figures moved with Cover Shot Special Attack never take leaving engagement attacks.
So far, this is what I've got. I really don't want to lose large figures from the power, since Zetacron, the Vark heroes, Skull Demons, Deathwalkers, and the Majors are all fun heroes in a hero-only Pavin build. It is odd for them to move, yes, but no theme is perfect in Heroscape and including these heroes makes for more fun gameplay. Thoughts?
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  #126  
Old June 27th, 2013, 02:18 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's Customs: revising Pavin Nahz

I think sticking with unique heroes is for the best, it just eliminates a good deal of speculation and discussion and will not shrink design space for future units.

As for other potential issues with theme, why not just put a range limitation? Even a radius of 8 spaces (no clear sight required) would help it feel more like Pavin is the one allowing the movement to happen by preoccupying nearby enemies. I think this guy is dripping with flavor and potential to shake up the game a little bit.
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  #127  
Old June 27th, 2013, 02:43 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's Customs: revising Pavin Nahz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
Okay, one SoV nomination down, and it's revising time! Thanks to the SoV judges for the great feedback. I won't be able to please everyone, but hopefully I can make something work.
Spoiler Alert!

Summary of the reviews: Caps thought squad and common hero figures should be able to move as well. Nyys did not like that huge figures could move. Superfrog wanted a small/medium restriction. Super Bogue thought it was a theme break that figures across the battlefield could be moved by a single shot.

Lots of people had concerns that Pavin would be too powerful. I started testing Pavin at 60 points, and since dropping to 45 he has still come off on the weaker end. Movement is only so helpful. Adding a clear sight or space restriction to Cover Shot movement only serves to weaken an already weak unit.

I'm going to add a "small, medium, or large" restriction to Cover Shot movement, but I still don't want to include squads and common heroes to the power. I could be persuaded, but I'll give my reasons against adding them. Worrisome combinations with Pavin Nahz if all figures can be moved with Cover Shot:
Spoiler Alert!

COVER SHOT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 8. Attack 1. Choose a non-adjacent figure to attack. After attacking an opponent's figure with Cover Shot Special Attack, you may move 3 other non-flying small, medium, or large Unique Heroes you control up to 4 spaces each. Figures moved with Cover Shot Special Attack never take leaving engagement attacks.
So far, this is what I've got. I really don't want to lose large figures from the power, since Zetacron, the Vark heroes, Skull Demons, Deathwalkers, and the Majors are all fun heroes in a hero-only Pavin build. It is odd for them to move, yes, but no theme is perfect in Heroscape and including these heroes makes for more fun gameplay. Thoughts?
Well first Skull Demons are common. I like that Deathwalker 7000 can be moved since it lets him stealth dodge from range. People really need to appreciate that he has 7 defense dice and this helps him get away from melee behind a screen. The problem is Q9 I think. You can let him set up in a good spot. Let's say that Omegacron has him blocked by three Repulsors. If Major Q9 gets cover-fired behind a screen, he avoids future circuitry overload attacks and boosted sniper shots. Then he can have other figures deal with the Repulsors while he waits. I'll admit it's got to require a little set up with a screen a few spaces behind Q9 but it would be infuriating to deal with.

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  #128  
Old June 27th, 2013, 03:20 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's Customs: revising Pavin Nahz

@ Heroscaper Guy
Skull Demons are Uncommon, and thus treated as Unique.

I haven't got much to contribute beyond that, and hoping that the issues on this guy get resolved, since I really like the design. A shame that wording on other cards makes it a pain in the rear deflector.
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  #129  
Old June 27th, 2013, 03:42 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's Customs: revising Pavin Nahz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn View Post
@ Heroscaper Guy
Skull Demons are Uncommon, and thus treated as Unique.

I haven't got much to contribute beyond that, and hoping that the issues on this guy get resolved, since I really like the design. A shame that wording on other cards makes it a pain in the rear deflector.
I forgot that, this is what happens when you only play one game with a unit.

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  #130  
Old June 27th, 2013, 07:03 PM
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Arch-vile Arch-vile is offline
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Re: Arch-vile's Customs: revising Pavin Nahz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerfortress View Post
As for other potential issues with theme, why not just put a range limitation? Even a radius of 8 spaces (no clear sight required) would help it feel more like Pavin is the one allowing the movement to happen by preoccupying nearby enemies.
That's a good idea, and it would change the power little on normal battlefields. Adding a range limit without clear sight is uncommon, though, and a clear sight limit won't weaken Pavin much.
COVER SHOT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 8. Attack 1. Choose a non-adjacent figure to attack. After attacking an opponent's figure with Cover Shot Special Attack, you may move up to 3 other non-flying small, medium, or large Unique Heroes you control who are within 8 clear sight spaces of Pavin Nahz up to 4 spaces each. Figures moved with Cover Shot Special Attack never take leaving engagement attacks.
Alternatively, I thought of re-thinking Pavin entirely, and simply giving him Unique Hero movement bonding. The theme is changed, but perhaps clearer. I'll be giving this one some thought.
ELITE TEAM MOBILIZATION
Instead of attacking with Pavin Nahz, you may move up to 3 other non-flying small, medium, or large Unique Heroes you control who are within 8 clear sight spaces of Pavin Nahz up to 4 spaces each. Figures moved with Elite Team Mobilization never take leaving engagement attacks.
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  #131  
Old June 27th, 2013, 07:08 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's Customs: revising Pavin Nahz

Cover Shot
After attacking a figure with a range greater than 4 with Pavin Nahz, you may move 3 figures you control in clear sight of the attacked figure up to 4 spaces each.

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  #132  
Old June 29th, 2013, 09:21 AM
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Re: Arch-vile's Customs: revising Pavin Nahz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
COVER SHOT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 8. Attack 1. Choose a non-adjacent figure to attack. After attacking an opponent's figure with Cover Shot Special Attack, you may move up to 3 other non-flying small, medium, or large Unique Heroes you control who are within 8 clear sight spaces of Pavin Nahz up to 4 spaces each. Figures moved with Cover Shot Special Attack never take leaving engagement attacks.
I really like this option, If this was the card, it would have 100% of my support. (I would likely print off a copy SoV or not).


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