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  #37  
Old October 25th, 2017, 10:50 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

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Lost Road Marsh: More roads that mostly do nothing... Jungle cover and a massive middle LoS block are helpful, but the roads don't access enough of the opposing hill easily. Melee is going to get shot once or twice if it wants to approach despite all the trees.


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Lost Road Marsh:
Aesthetics and Creativity(originality of build/looks good): 10/10
Balanced (doesn't favor one build over another): 1/20
Fits Theme & Good name: 3/10

Total: 14/40
The build looks beautiful... but that's the problem. This is the one time that trees on the map don't work. I'm a Star Wars fan and this definitely isn't where Luke found Yoda. The road, the trees... Nothing says wasteland or abandoned here. Competitively, Rats will screen the living daylight out of an opposing army as they can get 3 spaces ahead of the glyphs/middle of the map by Turn 2. I also don't like that Raelin can perch behind the tree and cover both glyphs all with a single OM. As far as the Hive goes, there has to be a place for it. I get it, just remove 6 swamp hexes, but hey, even Draugur underwent changes by mad_wookiee to be accepted into the BoV because it technically, originally didn't have space for the Hive.
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I honestly feel that Lost Road Marsh is more balanced than Obsidian Wastes, so I'm quite confused that both of you think it's worse.

I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but this isn't trying to be Dagobah. This is an old road that has been forgotten, and has become overgrown. If you look at the build instructions you can actually see that road goes underneath the patch of trees, and connects to the other side's roadway. I must respectfully state that I believe heroscaper2010 is wrong to say that this does not feel abandoned, and overgrown.

Unless range wants to run right up to your side of the map, it can't get attacks off on you with a height advantage. This changes once you get to a glyph, but glyphs are supposed to be in bad positions. The trees make it so that melee can stay on it's own side of the map with a height advantage, until you are ready to run around the trees. The two highest points are close enough, even though they can't see each other, that if you start from one side of the trees, even a 4 move non-flying figure can engage the highest point on the other side of the trees in 1 turn.

As for Raelin, yes, she can cover the glyphs, but the other player will get a height advantage on those figures, and that puts Raelin pretty close to the front lines which is a big risk. If you move your forces past the glyphs, then you don't get your Raelin buff, so the other player either gets to engage when they are ready to, or you don't get your Raelin buff. You could just flying her over the trees at that point, but then she has no cover at all, and a road leading right to her. Rats will always do well if you know what you're doing with them.

Yeah... I'm still not sure if I want to add a weird patch of terrain just for the Hive. If that's the only thing wrong with the map, I don't know that I really care. I don't mean to be rude when I say that, it just doesn't make sense to me. I actually like Mad_Wookiee's first version better myself, and I see this issue as something quite nit-picky. In my eyes this is going by the word of the law, instead of the spirit of the law. Actually, looking at the different versions of Draugur makes me want to change Lost Road Marsh even less now, because I think it both looked, and flowed a bit better before those changes. It won't bother me if this keeps it from being ARG approved, and I feel that this will likely be the case.

Despite how my response might sound, I really do appreciate your feedback. Just please understand that I put a good amount of time and effort into these maps, and so I am going to defend them. Even if I don't agree with what you have said about them, I hope that you will give me your honest feedback on my maps in the future as well. Thank you.
First off, your response is fine. I can’t say I didn’t expect you to challenge my feedback, and obviously, you have 18 votes on the map as of now saying otherwise to what I’m saying.

Who said range even wants to move? 6-range figures can sit at the front 2 spaces of the 7-hex sand and attack both glyphs. 7-range figures can sit on the back two by the Jungle and attack both glyphs. And then, mind you, at that point if you have Raelin you don’t even have to move her to have her in position.

Her cover up in the middle are going to be her allies that are fighting through. You only need two figures to lock down the middle.

Yes, Rats or any of the figures I’m mentioning (6- and 7-range figures like 4/10th and Krav, Q9, Raelin, etc.), can do well if you know what you’re doing with them, but do you really want them having this much of an advantage?

I’d encourage you to fix the Hive issue. And it is an issue. The Hive is a figure that can be drafted into a tournament army, and a tournament worthy map must include space for it. If not, that’s fine, it’ll just be a casual map. It’s not the worst issue of the map, but even if you balanced everything else, as a Tournament Director myself, I wouldn’t take it to a tournament without the SZs having space for the Hive.

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  #38  
Old October 25th, 2017, 11:05 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

I'm not sure what I'd think about Lost Road Marsh if the roads connected. I know I'd like it more than I do as it currently is.

Both maps are too range-friendly for my taste. It's a long slog from one side to the other, and Raelin in particular more than usually wrecks things. For myself, I wouldn't select either for a tournament.

Lost Road Marsh is a beautiful map, though, and that's (to my mind) an important quality.

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  #39  
Old October 25th, 2017, 07:38 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

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First off, your response is fine. I canít say I didnít expect you to challenge my feedback, and obviously, you have 18 votes on the map as of now saying otherwise to what Iím saying.

Who said range even wants to move? 6-range figures can sit at the front 2 spaces of the 7-hex sand and attack both glyphs. 7-range figures can sit on the back two by the Jungle and attack both glyphs. And then, mind you, at that point if you have Raelin you donít even have to move her to have her in position.

Her cover up in the middle are going to be her allies that are fighting through. You only need two figures to lock down the middle.

Yes, Rats or any of the figures Iím mentioning (6- and 7-range figures like 4/10th and Krav, Q9, Raelin, etc.), can do well if you know what youíre doing with them, but do you really want them having this much of an advantage?

Iíd encourage you to fix the Hive issue. And it is an issue. The Hive is a figure that can be drafted into a tournament army, and a tournament worthy map must include space for it. If not, thatís fine, itíll just be a casual map. Itís not the worst issue of the map, but even if you balanced everything else, as a Tournament Director myself, I wouldnít take it to a tournament without the SZs having space for the Hive.
The votes in my opinion seem to be mostly based on how pretty the maps look, otherwise Forrest Fire would be at least in second.

Range doesn't need to move much, but you're basically giving the glyphs away at that point. Lets say you pod up around the start-zone palmtree, and the sand 7-hex. You now have a road leading right to you, and bushes on either side to help developing melee. I have to ask how this situation is really any worse for melee than if the same tactic was used on Dust Bowl? If you have range on that map, you can just sit in your start zone and shoot everything that comes to you. There's very little to block line of sight, unless the figures are small enough to hide behind the battlements. I don't have any problems with Dust Bowl really, it's one of the maps I voted for, but I don't see it as any better balanced than this one.

I really don't think that Lost Road Marsh is giving those figures as much of an advantage as you think it is. The trees on the middle force you to either let the opponent move their army up behind the tree while you wait on your sand 7-hex, or forces you to move your range up farther than you would normally want to, just to get around the trees. The advantage that range wants to have is distance, and keeping the forces that are able to get closer thinned out. The trees in the middle don't let this happen. You either have to engage at the middle, which puts you closer, or you have to wait while they move their whole force up to the trees, before moving it around them. Both of these options keep you from being able to thin the on coming forces down, while they develop towards you.

It is surprising to me that you literally can't ever have it start on swamp water though it's base is made of swamp water. I just don't get this. Even Draugur made more sense to change than mine, because it was being placed on ice. You can't place the dang thing on the terrain it's thematically supposed to be on in the first place. I'm sorry but this is so incredibly stupid in my eyes. Of any criticism, this one is the one that actually makes me kind of mad. It's just so dumb. It's supposed to be on swamp water. If you can't place it on swamp water, then why is it's base made of swamp water, and not swamp grass? I would concede this point if the base was made of swamp grass, but it's literally swamp water, and you can even place it on swamp water. This is the biggest thematic break of anything I've ever seen in Heroscape. I don't care if this map is never used in a tournament because of this, I just find this issue so dumb that I really can't bring myself to care enough to fix it. I realize my response probably looks bad, but this is just how I feel about it. The spirit of the rules wasn't meant for this, even if the rules don't technically allow it. Again I'm sorry, but this is just a massively nit-picky thing in my book.
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  #40  
Old October 25th, 2017, 07:43 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I'm not sure what I'd think about Lost Road Marsh if the roads connected. I know I'd like it more than I do as it currently is.

Both maps are too range-friendly for my taste. It's a long slog from one side to the other, and Raelin in particular more than usually wrecks things. For myself, I wouldn't select either for a tournament.

Lost Road Marsh is a beautiful map, though, and that's (to my mind) an important quality.
I don't know what to say, except to ask that you play a few games on Lost Road Marsh. I honestly believe that you will feel differently after playing on it.
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  #41  
Old October 25th, 2017, 08:04 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
It is surprising to me that you literally can't ever have it start on swamp water though it's base is made of swamp water. I just don't get this. Even Draugur made more sense to change than mine, because it was being placed on ice. You can't place the dang thing on the terrain it's thematically supposed to be on in the first place. I'm sorry but this is so incredibly stupid in my eyes. Of any criticism, this one is the one that actually makes me kind of mad. It's just so dumb. It's supposed to be on swamp water. If you can't place it on swamp water, then why is it's base made of swamp water, and not swamp grass? I would concede this point if the base was made of swamp grass, but it's literally swamp water, and you can even place it on swamp water. This is the biggest thematic break of anything I've ever seen in Heroscape. I don't care if this map is never used in a tournament because of this, I just find this issue so dumb that I really can't bring myself to care enough to fix it. I realize my response probably looks bad, but this is just how I feel about it. The spirit of the rules wasn't meant for this, even if the rules don't technically allow it. Again I'm sorry, but this is just a massively nit-picky thing in my book.
Thought I'd chime in on this Hive issue. The thing isn't the theme, it's the rules. In the rulebook it says that the Hive must be able to be placed on its base, on regular tiles, with no immediate overhang under the base. When playing a tournament map, you shouldn't have to change the map in order to accommodate the rules, and the official rules should be followed at all times.

This also goes in conjunction with the rule that if a figure can't fit on a spot on the map, then it can't go there. If the Hive can't be placed normally somewhere in the Start Zone, then it can't go there, and technically the player would be forced to drop it from their army. That's the strict version of it, and that's how the BoV required things.

That said, the BoV didn't allow uncapped wall sections, which are also against the rules. In the ARV, we've been allowing those. For the Hive, we'll be reviewing this map individually, and I don't think that that alone would make or break your map since we already allowed it in, but going forward we plan on being more strict on the ruling.

Yes, it's a little limiting, and at time might be a slight aesthetic break. But so are most balance issues.

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Last edited by BiggaBullfrog; October 25th, 2017 at 09:26 PM.
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  #42  
Old October 25th, 2017, 08:11 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

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Originally Posted by Biggabullfrog
That said, the BoV didn't allow uncapped wall sections, which are also against the rules. In the ARV, we've been allowing those. For the Hive, we'll be reviewing this map individually, and I don't think that that alone would make or break your map since we already allowed it in (and one more map from this contest that no one else has caught yet), but going forward we plan on being more strict on the ruling.

Yes, it's a little limiting, and at time might be a slight aesthetic break. But so are most balance issues.
Agreed. Well put Bigga. Because of this particular build we are going to try and be more hardnose on that Hive ruling in the future. As of now, we don't have a major issue with it because of this particular situation with the Swamp hexes...but for each tournament director "to each his own", and that's okay.
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  #43  
Old October 26th, 2017, 05:55 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
It is surprising to me that you literally can't ever have it start on swamp water though it's base is made of swamp water. I just don't get this. Even Draugur made more sense to change than mine, because it was being placed on ice. You can't place the dang thing on the terrain it's thematically supposed to be on in the first place. I'm sorry but this is so incredibly stupid in my eyes. Of any criticism, this one is the one that actually makes me kind of mad. It's just so dumb. It's supposed to be on swamp water. If you can't place it on swamp water, then why is it's base made of swamp water, and not swamp grass? I would concede this point if the base was made of swamp grass, but it's literally swamp water, and you can even place it on swamp water. This is the biggest thematic break of anything I've ever seen in Heroscape. I don't care if this map is never used in a tournament because of this, I just find this issue so dumb that I really can't bring myself to care enough to fix it. I realize my response probably looks bad, but this is just how I feel about it. The spirit of the rules wasn't meant for this, even if the rules don't technically allow it. Again I'm sorry, but this is just a massively nit-picky thing in my book.
Thought I'd chime in on this Hive issue. The thing isn't the theme, it's the rules. In the rulebook it says that the Hive must be able to be placed on its base, on regular tiles, with no immediate overhang under the base. When playing a tournament map, you shouldn't have to change the map in order to accommodate the rules, and the official rules should be followed at all times.

This also goes in conjunction with the rule that if a figure can't fit on a spot on the map, then it can't go there. If the Hive can't be placed normally somewhere in the Start Zone, then it can't go there, and technically the player would be forced to drop it from their army. That's the strict version of it, and that's how the BoV required things.

That said, the BoV didn't allow uncapped wall sections, which are also against the rules. In the ARV, we've been allowing those. For the Hive, we'll be reviewing this map individually, and I don't think that that alone would make or break your map since we already allowed it in, but going forward we plan on being more strict on the ruling.

Yes, it's a little limiting, and at time might be a slight aesthetic break. But so are most balance issues.
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Agreed. Well put Bigga. Because of this particular build we are going to try and be more hardnose on that Hive ruling in the future. As of now, we don't have a major issue with it because of this particular situation with the Swamp hexes...but for each tournament director "to each his own", and that's okay.
I don't want to be an exception guys. I think this "rule" is not one that should be enforced, just as the capped walls "rule" should not be enforced. I can see that my opinion will probably split some of the community though. I don't know how I feel about this, but I went ahead and did it. I don't like it as much. I think it's less balanced. I think it looks worse. But hey it's got terrain for the hive, so there you go...


https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...o=file&id=4717

To be clear, if it wasn't painfully obvious already, I do not like this version. It might seem small at first glance, but the map just doesn't flow as well with these changes. I do not personally recommend this version to anyone. (I actually do, now that I've had time to think about it.)

EDIT: I changed this Hive version a bit to be more like the original. I didn't like how high the road next to the start zone was, because it makes it hard to climb out with 4 move figures, which are the figures that need the road the most. I also just think this update makes it look a little nicer than before.
To address why I didn't do it like this to begin with; if you look at the the swamp water along the edge, in between the start zone and the glyph, that little dip prevents 4 move figures from being able to take that glyph in 2 turns. It now requires 3. To keep that even like I did with the initial Hive placement version, I had to move a lot more terrain around, but that messed with several other parts of the map. I've decided to settle with this because 4 move can still engage that glyph in 2 turns, they just can't take it.

Last edited by Leaf_It; October 30th, 2017 at 05:26 AM.
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  #44  
Old October 26th, 2017, 10:33 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

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Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
It is surprising to me that you literally can't ever have it start on swamp water though it's base is made of swamp water. I just don't get this. Even Draugur made more sense to change than mine, because it was being placed on ice. You can't place the dang thing on the terrain it's thematically supposed to be on in the first place. I'm sorry but this is so incredibly stupid in my eyes. Of any criticism, this one is the one that actually makes me kind of mad. It's just so dumb. It's supposed to be on swamp water. If you can't place it on swamp water, then why is it's base made of swamp water, and not swamp grass? I would concede this point if the base was made of swamp grass, but it's literally swamp water, and you can even place it on swamp water. This is the biggest thematic break of anything I've ever seen in Heroscape. I don't care if this map is never used in a tournament because of this, I just find this issue so dumb that I really can't bring myself to care enough to fix it. I realize my response probably looks bad, but this is just how I feel about it. The spirit of the rules wasn't meant for this, even if the rules don't technically allow it. Again I'm sorry, but this is just a massively nit-picky thing in my book.
Thought I'd chime in on this Hive issue. The thing isn't the theme, it's the rules. In the rulebook it says that the Hive must be able to be placed on its base, on regular tiles, with no immediate overhang under the base. When playing a tournament map, you shouldn't have to change the map in order to accommodate the rules, and the official rules should be followed at all times.

This also goes in conjunction with the rule that if a figure can't fit on a spot on the map, then it can't go there. If the Hive can't be placed normally somewhere in the Start Zone, then it can't go there, and technically the player would be forced to drop it from their army. That's the strict version of it, and that's how the BoV required things.

That said, the BoV didn't allow uncapped wall sections, which are also against the rules. In the ARV, we've been allowing those. For the Hive, we'll be reviewing this map individually, and I don't think that that alone would make or break your map since we already allowed it in, but going forward we plan on being more strict on the ruling.

Yes, it's a little limiting, and at time might be a slight aesthetic break. But so are most balance issues.
I've been thinking about this comparison over the last couple days. Why is it more acceptable to use uncapped towers than it is to have a map that doesn't accommodate the Hive? Overall, I think it has to do with who is doing the rule breaking.

If you build a map with uncapped towers, it is the map maker who is breaking the rules. When a tournament director selects a map with uncapped towers for a tournament, people understand that the map is technically breaking the rules, but it is of no consequence to the players. They play as normal.

But with this case, the person breaking the rules is different. The map builder themself is not breaking any rules, but it's the person who is playing on the map that technically has to break the rules to place their Hive on top of the Swamp. It's a subtle distinction, but I think that for a tournament setting you wouldn't want to put a player in the position of having to break the rules or alter the map in any way.
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  #45  
Old October 26th, 2017, 11:08 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

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If you build a map with uncapped towers, it is the map maker who is breaking the rules. When a tournament director selects a map with uncapped towers for a tournament, people understand that the map is technically breaking the rules, but it is of no consequence to the players. They play as normal.
I love what you said, and I'm going to add onto this statement. I think you missed a key word. The bold should read "it is of no negative consequence to the players."

In fact, when a map-builder breaks the rules and allows uncapped towers, or doesn't add the 2nd level to the Warehouse, there are positive consequences for the players because that balances the map. Those rules, in a competitive setting, are overpowering for flying, range, and screens, but once they're broken, maps including columns and warehouses can be competitive (Ruins of Clionesia and Mayberry, for example).

The BoV follows all of the rules and consequently, has no approved maps using a Marvel set and the one map with capped castle columns (Broken Skyline) is no longer competitively viable.

On the flip-side, when a map-builder doesn't, by the rules, allow room for the Hive, that has negative consequences on a player using the Hive because that player has to drop the Hive. That then leads to tournament directors having to make an executive decision to allow the player to break the rules to accommodate for that player's army.

I've said this already but I'll say it again, as far as Lost Road Marsh goes, the Hive issue isn't even the biggest issue (though I am glad it's getting the attention it needs to from ARV). There are other larger competitive issues that need tended to and that would be far more detrimental to it seeing a tournament table than just not having technical space for the Hive.

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  #46  
Old October 26th, 2017, 11:10 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
It is surprising to me that you literally can't ever have it start on swamp water though it's base is made of swamp water. I just don't get this. Even Draugur made more sense to change than mine, because it was being placed on ice. You can't place the dang thing on the terrain it's thematically supposed to be on in the first place. I'm sorry but this is so incredibly stupid in my eyes. Of any criticism, this one is the one that actually makes me kind of mad. It's just so dumb. It's supposed to be on swamp water. If you can't place it on swamp water, then why is it's base made of swamp water, and not swamp grass? I would concede this point if the base was made of swamp grass, but it's literally swamp water, and you can even place it on swamp water. This is the biggest thematic break of anything I've ever seen in Heroscape. I don't care if this map is never used in a tournament because of this, I just find this issue so dumb that I really can't bring myself to care enough to fix it. I realize my response probably looks bad, but this is just how I feel about it. The spirit of the rules wasn't meant for this, even if the rules don't technically allow it. Again I'm sorry, but this is just a massively nit-picky thing in my book.
Thought I'd chime in on this Hive issue. The thing isn't the theme, it's the rules. In the rulebook it says that the Hive must be able to be placed on its base, on regular tiles, with no immediate overhang under the base. When playing a tournament map, you shouldn't have to change the map in order to accommodate the rules, and the official rules should be followed at all times.

This also goes in conjunction with the rule that if a figure can't fit on a spot on the map, then it can't go there. If the Hive can't be placed normally somewhere in the Start Zone, then it can't go there, and technically the player would be forced to drop it from their army. That's the strict version of it, and that's how the BoV required things.

That said, the BoV didn't allow uncapped wall sections, which are also against the rules. In the ARV, we've been allowing those. For the Hive, we'll be reviewing this map individually, and I don't think that that alone would make or break your map since we already allowed it in, but going forward we plan on being more strict on the ruling.

Yes, it's a little limiting, and at time might be a slight aesthetic break. But so are most balance issues.
I've been thinking about this comparison over the last couple days. Why is it more acceptable to use uncapped towers than it is to have a map that doesn't accommodate the Hive? Overall, I think it has to do with who is doing the rule breaking.

If you build a map with uncapped towers, it is the map maker who is breaking the rules. When a tournament director selects a map with uncapped towers for a tournament, people understand that the map is technically breaking the rules, but it is of no consequence to the players. They play as normal.

But with this case, the person breaking the rules is different. The map builder themself is not breaking any rules, but it's the person who is playing on the map that technically has to break the rules to place their Hive on top of the Swamp. It's a subtle distinction, but I think that for a tournament setting you wouldn't want to put a player in the position of having to break the rules or alter the map in any way.
That is an excellent point that I had never crossed my mind. Well put.

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
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Old October 27th, 2017, 07:35 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's Maps, and Scenarios

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Originally Posted by rednax View Post
But with this case, the person breaking the rules is different. The map builder themself is not breaking any rules, but it's the person who is playing on the map that technically has to break the rules to place their Hive on top of the Swamp. It's a subtle distinction, but I think that for a tournament setting you wouldn't want to put a player in the position of having to break the rules or alter the map in any way.
You are right. But I want to explain my thought process a little bit. When I thought about placing the Hive on this map, the way I thought about it didn't involve taking apart the map, but rather just setting the hive's base on top of the swamp water. This is why I never thought it was a problem, because there's room for the Hive, you just have to be okay with setting it's base on Swamp water. This is still against the "Rules", but it's a really simple thing to do, so I never thought it was a problem. If the issue ever came up at a tournament I was hosting, I would allow players using the Hive to just place it on top of the water, or Ice, or even Shadow if that was the only flat place they could set it within the start zone.
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