The Book of Punisher

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

It wasn't my idea, several other people brought it up before me.

I see, well out of those who may have a problem with it, I think that they are clearly drowned by the masses of fans and designers who like it as is.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

After reviewing the first post, I say shame on you, Hahma, for caving to very limited pressure in the face of many people loving what you had originally.
I'm going to start rallying right here to get that life back up to 5 and to fix Auto Shotgun and return it to its original glory.
With only a range of 3, absolutely no reason it shouldn't be a triple attack of 3 with explosive potential and not require that ridiculous LOS on all other affected figures for splash damage. The official game has a clear precedent for how splash damage is handled and I see absolutely no reason to depart from that.
I've gotta teach you to fight a little more for your great ideas, Hahma! It's one thing if there's a clear majority not loving it, but I just don't see that here.

I feel much shame I guess I didn't want to get into a Colossus thing, where my preference held things up. Sure there wasn't overwhelming hatred for it, but there seemed a consistent theme that he was overpowered. Then I was thinking that the ERB would get a hold of him and reject the heck out of it. I wasn't really in the mood to argue too much I guess and figured that it wasn't my personal custom anyway.

That said, I changed his life back up to 5 and shotgun back to 3 and going by offical wording.

I've read a lot of Punisher comics, especially recently reading over 15 of them to get a better grasp of him and felt my take on him offensively was pretty fair, because he kills a lot and is extremely dangerous. He doesn't have any special defensive power and has limited mobilty with just a move of 5 and he offers no boosts to any other figure. His cost is going to be mostly based on his offensive firepower. I don't know how familiar others are with him, but he's more than a schmuck with a couple guns.

There, how's that?

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

I agree with Life 5, and that he can be more powerful if you want him that way. But a shotgun shooting around corners is just wrong, thematically. It's not an explosion, it's basically a bunch of small bullets. Allowing this is no different than allowing a handgun to shoot figures that are not in LOS. I know the official shotgun power allows it, but that makes no sense to me. I guess the idea was that the shot spreads out, which is true, but it would also allow you to shoot around corners, which is odd.

I see yours and A3n's point GO. But aren't you the one pushing for Daredevil to have an abilty in Radar Sense that will allow him to grapple 3 spaces away and up to 20 levels high? If he, Spidey or Batman are on a flat map with no trees or buildings, what exactly are they grappling/swinglining onto? Batman can grapple 30 levels up into thin air? Can a Monk really leap 25 levels into the air? Magneto can lift a 30,000 ton train, sink a nuclear submarine, create a volcano in the middle of a city, but he can't throw a Deathstalker or Major Q10?

Lots of things in the game don't make perfect realistic sense.

[IAmBatman]

We could do a poll on it, if necessary. Count me as solidly on the side of echoing the official shotgun power here, though.

Edit: Looks like I've won over Hahma again.

[Griffin]

Official Shotgun for me please.

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by Hahma

I see yours and A3n's point GO. But aren't you the one pushing for Daredevil to have an abilty in Radar Sense that will allow him to grapple 3 spaces away and up to 20 levels high? If he, Spidey or Batman are on a flat map with no trees or buildings, what exactly are they grappling/swinglining onto? Batman can grapple 30 levels up into thin air? Can a Monk really leap 25 levels into the air? Magneto can lift a 30,000 ton train, sink a nuclear submarine, create a volcano in the middle of a city, but he can't throw a Deathstalker or Major Q10?

Well, this isn't actually that big of a deal for me, so I don't really care that much if it stays like the official one. That being said, I think your examples fall into a diferrent category. Batman can't grapple up 30 levels on a flat map - there's nothing 30 levels up to place him on. If there was, that's what he'd grappling onto. Plus, swing line powers are necessary for game mechanics in order to allow some figures to move around faster. It's basically flying with more thematic wording and some limitations on height. The Magneto example would be game-breaking if it were done thematically, so that obviously wasn't an option. For the shotgun, it isn't game-breaking, just a thematic preference. And if people were worried about Punisher's shotgun being weaker, that could always be made more powerful in other ways.

But like I said, I don't really care much either way.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

We could do a poll on it, if necessary. Count me as solidly on the side of echoing the official shotgun power here, though.

Edit: Looks like I've won over Hahma again.

I like the official shotgun as it is on Johnny. It has worked for many years without me ever playing with or against him and having a complaint raised be either parties regarding the non-LOS. People know what they get when playing with or against him. IMO.

Yeah, I guess I was trying to please everyone and feel collaborative and losing the vision along the way. If someone has read a ton of Punisher (especially over the past decade) and feel that he shouldn't be an all out offensive badass, then let me know. He's an obsessed killing machine, that's what he does.

[Hahma]

[quote=GreyOwl;1085641
Batman can't grapple up 30 levels on a flat map - there's nothing 30 levels up to place him on. If there was, that's what he'd grappling onto. Plus, swing line powers are necessary for game mechanics in order to allow some figures to move around faster. It's basically flying with more thematic wording and some limitations on height. [/quote]

Okay so Batman can't grapple 30 levels up on a flat map, but he can grapple across a river on a flat map with nothing to grapple onto. I know, I have to use my imagination.

The Spidey example is true in being a mechanic that it allows units to move around faster, even though he may not "actually" have someting to swing line to grab onto. That said, couldn't the non-LOS for shotguns also be a mechanic to allow a shorter ranged weapon to be more effective? Riccochets, can happen Also, since we can only put one figure on a space at a time, they seem far apart. But they may actually be a lot closer to each other than can be mechanically done do space restrictions.

[IAmBatman]

You can be collaborative without responding to every single voice. If it's a suggestion you find questionable, wait and see how many people feel that way. Our collaboration is based on a majority of voices.

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by Hahma

That said, couldn't the non-LOS for shotguns also be a mechanic to allow a shorter ranged weapon to be more effective? Riccochets, can happen

Aboslutely, which is why I said I don't care much either way. I just said that thematically it didn't make sense for a shotgun to shoot around corners. But it's not broken, so it's fine.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

You can be collaborative without responding to every single voice. If it's a suggestion you find questionable, wait and see how many people feel that way. Our collaboration is based on a majority of voices.

Yeah, I know. I'd have been better off just not responding to anything for awhile until all voices were heard from and see how big a deal certain things were. I guess I was just trying to be "on top of things"

That being said, look out everyone because I'm sticking to my guns unless there's massive reasons to change.

[IAmBatman]

I'm happy with him as is. He's ready for initial playtesting in my book.

[A3n]

If we are voting on the shotgun change then I would vote for it to change. It's wrong & for you all to say that we will keep it just because it's done on the official cards that way & people have been playing it that way for so long so no need to change it. Then on that statement I would also say that there is no need EVER to redo the official Marvel cards.

Cheers