The Book of Karai

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Karai

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Army Test 1
Map: Custom
Units:
Karai(185), Master Splinter(230), Leonardo(210), Michelangelo(170), Hand Ninja(85) (880)
vs.
Luke Cage(190), Iron Fist(260), Wolverine(280), Moon Knight(150) (880)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R1T2: 1 wound on Luke Cage. (single ranged height)

Notes:
R1T2: Hand Ninja take a turn with Karai, then they move and put 2 wounds on Cage.
R1T3: Fist kills a Hand, heals Cage, then Cage kills a Hand.
R2T1: Fist kills last Hand, heals Cage, Cage puts 1 wound on Karai.
R2T2: Fist kills Karai.
R2T3: Cage puts 2 wounds on Leo.
R3T1: Leo puts 1 wound on Fist, Mikey puts 2 wounds on Fist.
R3T1: Fist kills Leo. Heals 1 wound. Cage takes 1 wound from Mikey's LaS. Master Splinter pops up and retrieves Leo's OMs.
R3T2: Splinter kills Iron Fist.
R3T3: Splinter puts 2 wounds on Cage.
R4T2: Splinter kills Luke Cage.
R4T3: Splinter puts 2 wounds on Moon Knight.
R5T2: Splinter kills Moon Knight.
R5T3: Wolverine kills Splinter.
R6T1: Wolverine puts 2 wounds on Mikey.
R6T1: Mikey puts 4 wounds on Wolverine in 2 attacks.
R6T2: Wolverine kills Mikey.


Wolverine with 3 wounds.

Very close game. Karai got rocked early on when the heat was on her, as did the Hand, and it was pretty much carried by Splinter and the Turtles for damage, Splinter especially. Wolverine finally came out and mopped up Splinter and Mikey for the comeback win.

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Army Test 2
Map: Custom
Units:
Karai(185), Leonardo(210), Michelangelo(170), Donatello(150), Hand Ninja(85) (800)
vs.
Star-Lord(250), Cap(240), Gamora(310) (800)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R2T1: 1 wound on Star-Lord. (single ranged height)
R3T2: 4 wounds on Star-Lord, kills him. (2 attacks, both adjacent for auto skulls)
R4T2: 1 wound on Cap. (2 attacks, both adjacent for auto skulls)

Notes:
R2T1: Cap kills a Hand.
R2T2: Donatello throws and wounds Cap to cut off bonus.
R2T2: Gamora puts 2 wounds on Leo.
R2T3: Gamora kills Leo.
R3T2: Gamora kills Mikey.
R4T1: Cap puts a wound on Karai.
R4T2: Gamora takes a wound from LEA, puts 2 wounds on Karai.
R4T3: Gamora kills Karai.
R5T1: Cap puts 2 wounds on Donatello. Places Grav Gauntlet.
R5T2: Gamora kills Donnie.
R5T3: Gamora kills last Hand.


Cap with 2/5 wounds, and Gamora unwounded.

Not such a close game this time around. Karai managed to take out Star-Lord, but after that it was a big struggle for the Ninjas. Gamora hit heavy as usual, and the Turtles just couldn't offset her, and Karai could only do so much.

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Army Test 3
Map: Custom
Units:
Karai(185), Shredder(245), Kirigi(175), Foot Clan Ninja(155), Hand Ninja x 2(170) (930)
vs.
Master Splinter(230), Leonardo(210), Raphael(170), Donatello(150), Michelangelo(170) (930)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R4T1: 3 wounds on Donnie. (2 adjacent attacks with auto skulls)
R4T3: 2 wounds to Raphael, kills him. (single adjacent attack with auto skull)
R5T1: 1 wound on Mikey. (2 adjacent attacks with auto skulls)

Notes:
R2T2: Shredder puts 1 wound on Leo.
R3T1: Leo takes 3 wounds from Shredder's RCS. Raph puts 2 wounds on Shredder but takes 3 wounds from RCS. Mikey kills Shredder.
R3T3: Hand Ninja kills Leo.
R4T1: Mikey kills a Hand.
R4T1: Hand kills Donnie.
R4T2: Raph is feeling Self Important thanks to his fallen comrads and Splinter. He kills a Hand, then puts 1 wound on Karai, then kills another Hand.
R5T1: 3 Hand manage to kill Mikey, which triggers Splinter.
R5T1: Splinter kills Karai.
R5T3: A Foot is killed by Splinter's BB.
R5T3: Splinter kills a Foot.
R6T2: Kirigi puts 2 wounds on Splinter, and takes 1 wound.
R6T2: Splinter puts 2 wounds on Kirigi.
R6T3: 2 Feet are killed by Splinter's Breaking Balance, but then the last Foot kills Splinter.


Kirigi with 3/6 wounds, 2 Hand Ninjas remain, and 1 Foot Ninja remains.

Close matchup. The Turtles got pretty wrecked by Shredder early on, then Karai and the Hand came in and finished the job. Splinter cleaned up Karai with ease and dealt with several Hand and Feet, as well as bringing Kirigi down to half life, but they ultimately got the best of Splinter.

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THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY:
I definitely like what she can do. She feels super simple and straight forward, which is nice. It's hard to tell if 185 is warranted with these 2 losses, as I felt Splinter did the majority of the lifting in game 1, causing it to be a close loss, but in game 2 Karai did the most for her team but they lost much harder. Would 185 be undraftable? Hard to tell as I said, with her not offering anything super dangerous or huge synergy boosts, I feel a more modest 175 is better fitted for her draftability. I feel that's where she's best suited for performance wise for your points. Definitely fun and thematic.

Cool! Glad you like her. As for price... honestly, you were playing her with the Turtles, which I do like as a fun and viable build for her, but I do think she's at her best in a more Foot Clan-esque build. Would it be possible for you or someone else to run just one game with her in a Foot build (2/3 Hand Ninja, Foot Clan Ninja, Shredder, Ninja and Assassin Heroes and Squads to make up points (or even Masahiro if you want to stack attack boosts))? I'd like more than one person to have played her at her best before we decide on pricing.

[Arkham]

I may be able to do one game, I just based my armies on your 2nd game. The pricing was from mine and lobsters. I just don’t see 185 and I believe I said that before testing that she just doesn’t seem like a 185. There’s so many 180 and 175 point figures I’d take over her. So I’d hate to see her overpriced when it’s not necessary here. Usually you go higher to be safe on figures that have a lot of potential to go above and beyond damage or synergy wise. I just don’t see that potential here.

If I run one more I’ll try that army suggestion.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

I may be able to do one game, I just based my armies on your 2nd game. The pricing was from mine and lobsters. I just don’t see 185 and I believe I said that before testing that she just doesn’t seem like a 185. There’s so many 180 and 175 point figures I’d take over her. So I’d hate to see her overpriced when it’s not necessary here. Usually you go higher to be safe on figures that have a lot of potential to go above and beyond damage or synergy wise. I just don’t see that potential here.

If I run one more I’ll try that army suggestion.

Thanks, chap! I'm certainly not opposed to 175 - I'd be okay with the drop, in theory - I'd just rather not make it until someone other than I has tried her in her strongest (IMO) build. The +1 move to all Ninja is so much more useful when you're swarming tonnes of them, and she does like Shredder's attack bonus.

[Arkham]

Updated with a 3rd game. Still feel 175 is the most fitting but I'm not going to stop it from being 185 if that's what you desire. When targeted she seems to go down pretty easily, and her attacks are best suited as adjacent attacks which leaves her very vulnerable, so I always hesitate going higher with that type of value, but it's a 10 point difference at the end of the day.

[Lazy Orang]

Not seeing that third game, chap, but if you're happiest at 175 I'm good with it!

[Arkham]

Accidentally edited your post quoting mine with the 3rd game. It's in my original post now.

Like I said, it's your call. Not against either as it's a 10 point difference. I'm just not concerned with the unit at 175.

[Lazy Orang]

Okay, thanks, chap. Updated the OP with your tests.

I'm not 100% either way, so I'm bringing it to a vote. So, gentlemen (and lady), looking over the test results, do you feel Karai should be:

a) 175
b) 185
@Ronin - @Arkham - @Tornado - @japes - @Spidey'tilIDie - @SirGalahad - @Yodaking - @johnny139 - @dok - @Dysole - @Soundwarp SG-1 @weebaer - @quozl - @Margloth -

[Ronin]

Not super-concerned either way myself, but I'd probably lean towards 185. She definitely had a pretty good record in the swarmier armies that gave her more figures to boost and use as screens.

[Tornado]

I have a hard time believing she is better than Kirigi who is 175, so 175.

[Arkham]

That's kind of what I'm stuck on. There's a lot of figures at 170-180 that I have a hard time seeing her better than in terms of her effectiveness. I think she stands the best chances of being drafted at 175, and what she does doesn't concern me enough to feel going higher is necessary here. But I'm fine with either.

[Yodaking]

It looks like she won at 175 (w/squads) & 170 (w/o squads), lost at 185 (w/squads vs. squads) & 180 (w/o squads vs. squads), then lost two more times at 185 (w/o multiple squads) before winning at 185 (w/multiple squads). Does she need to end in a '5' or could she land at 180? If forced to pick between 175 & 185 then I'm leaning towards 185 only because of what she does for 'squad' scape. When surrounded by squads she seems to be worth 185.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

It looks like she won at 175 (w/squads) & 170 (w/o squads), lost at 185 (w/squads vs. squads) & 180 (w/o squads vs. squads), then lost two more times at 185 (w/o multiple squads) before winning at 185 (w/multiple squads). Does she need to end in a '5' or could she land at 180? If forced to pick between 175 & 185 then I'm leaning towards 185 only because of what she does for 'squad' scape. When surrounded by squads she seems to be worth 185.

It's generally been an aesthetic that Foot and Foot adjacent designs end in 5 (Shredder, Foot Clan, Hun, even the Hand.


So that's two votes each... okay.