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  #7225  
Old April 12th, 2021, 02:36 PM
Knight of Scape Knight of Scape is offline
 
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Then change the name. The minis certainly *could* be fantasy. So make them fantasy, and stop forcing them to have a foot in both worlds.
It seems to me that using a name from earth mythology is well in line with existing fantasy units. We already have a giant whose name comes from norse mythology, wolves whose name comes from Egyption mythology, a dragon whose name is pretty clearly derived from an ice world in norse mythology, a gorgon whose name is just an anagaram of "medusa", names like Cyprien, Sonya and Raelin which are real human names, and the Dzu-teh whose name is a species of bear.

Realistically, there's no reason why any of these units from fantasy worlds unrelated to earth should have names from Earth, particularly ones that tie into mythology that's related to the unit. Practically, they're fine names, and the connections to earth mythology are a fun easter egg.

A squad of fantasy hunters named after a tribe from Beowulf/Norse mythology seems to fit perfectly well into this tradition.

~KoS, who vehemently rejects the idea that fantasy units should always have silly made-up names that are hard to remember and to spell.
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  #7226  
Old April 12th, 2021, 03:16 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Yeah this is an Amazon/Ashra situation to me. It doesn’t bother me at all. Certainly more interesting than humans.
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  #7227  
Old April 12th, 2021, 06:46 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Agreed, Wulfing is a fine name, and the fact that it pulls from real world history only makes it feel like it fits with existing HeroScape even more.

I really like this new rendition of the Wulfing, and I'm glad they are coming back to the SoV.
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  #7228  
Old April 12th, 2021, 07:21 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I just want to be clear that it’s my understanding that the Wulfings were *real.* This is not from mythology. It’s real.

Changing “Amazon” to “Ashra” is precisely the type of thing that should happen here. It’s not hard but I’m talking to a wall on this point.

I have been asked to speak up in advance when I see problems with SoV nominees, because the bar for entry into the canon is high. We are demanding. It’s not enough that things are “good enough.” Designs should be the best they can be.

So here I am, pointing out a problem - not a big one, but there are zero designs from real human history planted on other planets, and there is no reason to do so here other than stubbornness - and all I’m getting is “no big deal.”

This will keep happening. Compromised, inadequate designs will keep limping past this stage, so they can get to the voters who actually care that the design is as good as it can possibly be, and I guess we’ll have to be the ones who go on caring about the details.

I’ve shared my thoughts. This is a minor element of the design but it’s not in conformance with the canon. Is it close? Maybe. Is “close” good enough? No.

Again I apologize that units struggle after approval by the SoV. But what you’re seeing here is why. There’s a problem, and all I’m getting is “good enough, no need to address that minor issue.” Even though fixing it would be child’s play.

Don’t care here? Fine. We’ll discuss it later.

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  #7229  
Old April 12th, 2021, 07:31 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Beowulf was from the wullfing clan. Seems our main knowledge on them comes through fiction, though it's likely some sort of Scandinavia clan did exist that had a similar name: Ylfing.

The Wulfings, Wylfings or Ylfings[Note 1] (the name means the "wolf clan") was a powerful clan in Beowulf, Widsith and in the Norse sagas. While the poet of Beowulf does not locate the Wulfings geographically, Scandinavian sources define the Ylfings (the Old Norse form of the name) as the ruling clan of the Eastern Geats.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wulfings

Edit: by the way, Ashra's first hit on google is a word from hebrew that means Perfect Woman. Has nothing to do with Amazon's, or elves, completely different culture. Also... have you done any research on the name Wulfing or are you just going off what has been said?

Last edited by Shiftrex; April 12th, 2021 at 07:57 PM.
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  #7230  
Old April 12th, 2021, 08:01 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I know they are from human history. I did look that up. As NB said, take a name inspired by that. Or, as you say yourself, take a name that is just a translation from something in some other language. That's all fine.

But there are, as far as I know, *zero* examples of real people - a real clan, here - imported directly into Heroscape, with the exact name being kept, but the specie and planet changing to something fantasy. Zero.

You could change the name to anything. I don't care. But you won't.

It's not the only problem with this design, as I see it, but it seems like an easy fix. Oh well!

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  #7231  
Old April 12th, 2021, 08:07 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

If it gets kicked back it gets kicked back then I promise thatll be the first thing I change on it.

I'll go with something generic at that point, like Shadow Hunters or Skullfang hunters, just please dont tell me to change the general after that too though! Lol. If I can keep what I have though.. I'd like to keep it. I do appreciate your point of view and am thankful for it, its noted on my change log for redesigns.

If there are problems beyond the name, I'd love to hear about those as well.
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  #7232  
Old April 12th, 2021, 08:29 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
If it gets kicked back it gets kicked back then I promise thatll be the first thing I change on it.

I'll go with something generic at that point, like Shadow Hunters or Skullfang hunters, just please dont tell me to change the general after that too though! Lol. If I can keep what I have though.. I'd like to keep it. I do appreciate your point of view and am thankful for it, its noted on my change log for redesigns.

If there are problems beyond the name, I'd love to hear about those as well.
My other concerns are more subjective. But this attitude that you can correct one mistake at a time to get the unit just barely over the hump is deeply discouraging.

For now, I don't have anything else to say here.

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  #7233  
Old April 12th, 2021, 08:41 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I'd love some Hunter synergy in the game, but not bonding. to review.

In response to the name, I started reading the arguments thinking that the reasons for keeping Wulfing were stronger, but as I read it seems to me that the counterpoints being brought up are actually just proving Dad_Scaper's point. While inspiration from mythology has always been loose with Heroscape (as it always is with fantasy), actual historical inspirations have stuck with historical designs. So I'm currently agreeing that changing the name to an homage instead of a direct lift would be the better choice. (It's also an easy change, and DS is probably one of the best people on the site to help workshop an homage with.) I'm not 100% certain if I would downvote on it, since it seems like the line between nonfiction and fiction here is blurred, but that's the way I'd be leaning. I would probably wait a tad longer to see how the conversation plays out.

That said, I actually think that making them historical humans is way more interesting than fantasy humanoids. Wouldn't downvote on that, but it feels Roman, and Romans are cool.

I realize that the name bit didn't come under scrutiny the last time the card went through the process, but imho it's good when new things come to light. Even if it's a little more effort in the process, it only helps the unit to become the ultimate best it can be.
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  #7234  
Old April 12th, 2021, 08:45 PM
Knight of Scape Knight of Scape is offline
 
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I know they are from human history. I did look that up. As NB said, take a name inspired by that. Or, as you say yourself, take a name that is just a translation from something in some other language. That's all fine.

But there are, as far as I know, *zero* examples of real people - a real clan, here - imported directly into Heroscape, with the exact name being kept, but the specie and planet changing to something fantasy. Zero.

You could change the name to anything. I don't care. But you won't.

It's not the only problem with this design, as I see it, but it seems like an easy fix. Oh well!
Beowulf is very much a mythological story. It also includes dragons and monsters and such. So given that Beowulf and related poems seem to be our primary source of information on the Wulfings, I don't think it's clear that they are real people. According to Wikipedia, they may have been predecessors of the similarly named Wuffingas clan, which we do have evidence of.

But even if the Wulfings were real people, it seems disingenuous to me to say that the Wulfing Hunters are "imported directly into Heroscape, with the exact name being kept." The meaning of the name--"related to wolves" fits with how the Wulfing hunters work. But the Wulfings from Beowulf didn't wear masks and weren't known for being silent hunters, so they have very little connection with this design, they just happen to share the same name.

I feel like this design would be weaker if they were changed to be humans from Earth, because the thematically these guys do not feel like viking clan from Beowulf
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  #7235  
Old April 12th, 2021, 08:52 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Knight of Scape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I know they are from human history. I did look that up. As NB said, take a name inspired by that. Or, as you say yourself, take a name that is just a translation from something in some other language. That's all fine.

But there are, as far as I know, *zero* examples of real people - a real clan, here - imported directly into Heroscape, with the exact name being kept, but the specie and planet changing to something fantasy. Zero.

You could change the name to anything. I don't care. But you won't.

It's not the only problem with this design, as I see it, but it seems like an easy fix. Oh well!
Beowulf is very much a mythological story. It also includes dragons and monsters and such. So given that Beowulf and related poems seem to be our primary source of information on the Wulfings, I don't think it's clear that they are real people. According to Wikipedia, they may have been predecessors of the similarly named Wuffingas clan, which we do have evidence of.

But even if the Wulfings were real people, it seems disingenuous to me to say that the Wulfing Hunters are "imported directly into Heroscape, with the exact name being kept." The meaning of the name--"related to wolves" fits with how the Wulfing hunters work. But the Wulfings from Beowulf didn't wear masks and weren't known for being silent hunters, so they have very little connection with this design, they just happen to share the same name.

I feel like this design would be weaker if they were changed to be humans from Earth, because the thematically these guys do not feel like viking clan from Beowulf
See, that argument just makes the design weaker in my eyes. If they are going to have the same name as a mythological people, they should actually feel like an homage at that point. Being totally different than the source and just happening to have the same name seems like another level of theme break.
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  #7236  
Old April 12th, 2021, 08:55 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Understandable, thankyou for voting.

But I can garuntee I wont be making them a human unit if I am doing another redesign. Already have another stack of powers tested so I'm prepared lol.
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