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  #3421  
Old April 15th, 2010, 03:53 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Slash and Burn by Dignan

Slash and Burn is a smaller map that requires 1 RotV and 1 TJ. The start zones are surrounded by higher ground and water. The jungle terrain is spread throughout the map. The center is a chokepoint of sorts with a small river in the middle and the ruins enclosing either side. There’s a small sand dune next to each start zone.

There’s quite a bit of elevation change throughout the map. It was a little unfriendly to 2 hex units, especially if they were trying to traverse the middle. The bigger 2 hex units didn’t fit. The map looks fairly melee friendly at first, with the jungle terrain. But the constant elevation changes and choke points really made it tough for melee armies to get going.

Slash and Burn is a good map and I highly respect Dignan’s map making capabilities, but I vote NO to induct Slash and Burn into the BoV.

Vesuvian by dok

Vesuvian is an interesting map that uses RotV and 1 VW. It uses the lava tiles in a very interesting manner. Basically what dok did was stack up 1 and 2 hex plateaus and put molten lava on top of them to keep ranged flyers off. I think it’s a very creative idea. Most of the central part of the map where the high ground is located is lava field. The glyphs are also located on the lava field. There were a few safe spots that weren’t lava field.

There were lots of decision making going on when played on this map. Often times ranged units were firing up to oncoming melee armies. Melee armies are typically a little cheaper point for point than ranged armies, so the melee units could risk a little bit more than the ranged armies could by staying on lava from time to time.

The ruins and the one and two hex plateaus provided ample cover for the melee armies for the most part. That coupled with it being tough for ranged armies to control the high ground and me being a sucker for lava maps has me voting YES to induct Vesuvian into the BoV.

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  #3422  
Old April 16th, 2010, 07:47 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I would like to nominate 1Mmirg's map, Undergroung Iceways, for review. We had it at our southwest Florida Wave 11 tournament and I got to play three games on the map (including two games in the final four) against a Stinger/Phantom army and two Glad/Blast armies using my nearly all melee Orc Army (with Marro Clones as my only range). All the games I got to play on this map at the tournament, as well as a couple games I played on it at home with family/friends, felt balanced, fun, and seemed to give no clear advantages to melee or range units.

It uses one Battle for the Underdark, one Tundra, and one Fortress of the Archkyrie.

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Last edited by rudyvalentine; April 17th, 2010 at 09:55 AM. Reason: Fixed broken image link.
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  #3423  
Old April 16th, 2010, 08:21 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Maps Pending Acceptance for review:

Underground Iceways by 1Mmirg


I have some concerns about the choke points on this map and the overall pathing, but it looks great and it could be very interesting. YES to review.

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  #3424  
Old April 16th, 2010, 08:51 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Thank you, rudyvalentine, for the nomination.

A note: The map that rudyvalentine and the rest of us used at our event had one difference from the map pictured in his nomination. I have made that small change in the downloads (two ice tiles have been moved up one space higher). It is a small difference, but it is also the actual map that rudyvalentine played on at the event. The download is now accurate.

Here, btw, is my post on this map (including a note on the change), fwiw.
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  #3425  
Old April 16th, 2010, 11:50 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Sorry for the delay on updating the Display thread! Congrats Rÿ!
Update 4/16/10
Logged nominations and votes
Migol's gate nominated and received enough Yes to review votes(Riggler, 1Mmirg, Dignan, nyys) to add to review.
Slash and Burn - Matthias Maccabeus-N
Vesuvian - Matthias Maccabeus-Y
Underground Iceways - Dignan-Ytr


Maps pending acceptance for review:
Underground Iceways by 1Mmirg*
YES = 1(Dignan); NO = 0; Pending = 4 (Kahrma, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys, Riggler)*1Mmirg removed from process per being map creator.

Maps currently being reviewed:

Striking Distance by Dignan
YES = 1 (Riggler) ; NO = 1 (Matthias Maccabeus); Pending = 3 (1Mmirg, Kahrma , nyys) *Dignan removed from process per being map creator

Noctis by Mad_Wookie
YES = 1 (Riggler) ; NO = 1(Dignan) ; Pending = 4(1Mmirg, Kahrma, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys)

Slash and Burn by Dignan
YES = 0; NO = 1(Matthias Maccabeus) ; Pending = 4 (1Mmirg, Kahrma, nyys, Riggler)* Dignan removed from process per being map creator.

Vesuvian by dok
YES = 1(Matthias Maccabeus); NO = 0; Pending = 5 (1Mmirg, Dignan, Kahrma, nyys, Riggler)

Migol's Gate by Velenne
YES = 0; NO = 0; Pending = 6 (1Mmirg, Dignan, Kahrma, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys, Riggler)
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  #3426  
Old April 16th, 2010, 05:37 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Maps Pending Acceptance for review:

Underground Iceways by 1Mmirg

I echo Dignan's concerns re: choke points. The general layout of "Iceways" vaguely reminds me of Longheroscaper's "Invasion". YES to review.
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  #3427  
Old April 19th, 2010, 09:03 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Slash and Burn by Dignan

This was honestly not a map I was looking forward to playing on. Before building it looked awfully small. But I was pleasantly surprised by how it played out. One must remember it only uses RotV and one Jungle and it makes great use of those.

One thing my testing showed was that the river that runs through the map certainly dictates movement of forces. Those non-flying units that need to move in mass tend towards their non-water side unless they have slither or are double-spaced. But it's interesting dynamic to see which units can squeeze through the small land bridges to the other side or brave the water. There are four pathways to engagement here and that makes it interesting.

I can see where a melee only army vs. a mostly ranged army would face problems. But that's just about any map. A diversity of army make-up to me is the best testing armies -- range, melee, special attack included perhaps flying. And when some range heavy armies were played on this mpa. They fared pretty well in my testing.

One thing I would suggest for any TD using this map is to be certain the glyphs on this map are pretty good. I even tested with treasure glyphs, but the random glyph pool was either pretty good glyphs or a pit trap. And I think those are needed here to keep the armies spread on such a condensed map.

This is a really great map for the amount of terrain used to build it. I vote YES to induct.

Underground Iceways by 1Mmirg*
Yes to review.

Vesuvian by dok
I didn't find many option or choices on this map. It was pretty clear cut what to do. I vote NO to induct.

Last edited by Riggler; April 25th, 2010 at 12:48 AM. Reason: Added vote to review on Underground Iceways and vote on onduction ot Vesuvian
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  #3428  
Old April 27th, 2010, 04:29 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Striking Distance by Dignan

The most striking () part of this map is the start zones. They are both fairly close to the opponent (at points) and distant from the rest of your own team. The other elements of the map are artfully done with minimal, in my mind issues—in fact, I think everything else is very nicely done. It is the start zones that lead to the most critical, interesting, and problematic factors of this map:

1) Challenges for Raelin armies – Raelin can have quite a time helping out her army on this map. Now, this isn’t all bad; Raelin is heavily played and is perhaps as close to undercosted as we have in Scape. However, many players bring a Raelin army (often because that is all they have the competitive “parts” for) and many will be silently praying “I hope I don’t draw Striking Distance.” [I’m fairly neutral on this point, though I lean to this being more of a positive than a negative]

2) Boosts to swarm armies – This is an issue for me. The ability to rapidly switch fronts in the battle, because most/all your army is on the same OM, is amplified by this map (the game often plays out on two fronts for at least part of the game due to the wide central valley). Swarm armies have quite a lot of flexibility and an added boost over OM-intensive armies, which, to me is problematic. This boost is amplified by the fact that Raelin—often a saving grace for OM-intensive armies—is hurt by this map. [This one is a negative in my mind. Swarm armies already do well and this map can become a real killing field for the 4th Mass (and plenty of others), who already don’t need any boost.]

3) Swingy Outcomes – The map, I think because the start zones are so close to the opponent (but often far from many of your own reinforcements), seems to cause pretty strong swings. Initiative gains importance, though I also found the swings frequently felt (to me at least) as balancing as not. I only recall one game (of quite a few now) where a single player came out, gained control and held it tightly all game. [This factor is also one I’m fairly neutral on. I think good playing is generally rewarded by the map, but that playing needs to be really sharp on this one—and that the map also seems to often give the underdog another avenue of attack. However, I’m just not sure about a map that seems to encourage upsets, from what I’ve seen.]

4) Extended Set-up – I’m not a fan of maps that encourage opponents to say, “Let’s just d20 to see who sets up first,” and this one does that (not every time, but the feeling is there a lot, from what I’ve seen). It is just one more thing that slows down a tourney and leads someone to feel that a single d20 roll had a huge impact on the game. [Yes, this is a negative to me, but I’m willing to concede I could be wrong about this. I did see many armies come back from that initial poor d20 roll, so the swing of this map might balance this out more than some players will recognize or believe.]

It is also worth noting (though it isn’t related to the starting zones, directly) that this map has a rather large footprint and that several games came down to mostly playing on one side or the of the map’s central valley, leaving large amounts of the field untouched—at least that game.
So, there are definitely some issues with this map (which is why I’ve been so slow to test it and in publishing this review). However, there are plenty of mitigating elements as well. It isn’t like the 4th Mass (or swarms in general) don’t go into a lot of maps with a bit of an advantage, or that Raelin can’t use a bit of a handicap now and then, or that a Tourney Director can’t tell ahead of time if they have room for the map on the table. And the swing factor definitely went in my favor as much as against it.

With one exception, I always enjoyed the games on this map—some were among my recent most favorites, in fact. I was pleasantly surprised to see melee armies take out ranged armies (even after a failed initiative or two), often just by adjusting the attack posture and position. (This map encourages interesting flanking and positioning, especially if you have several solid bread and butter units in multiple places on the map.) And, most of the issues with this map could, in the right tourney, be positive in terms of affecting the map pool—offering players a reason to think about different choices or countering static play practices. In my mind, this is a very intense map, with many options, and often full of fierce play. It is well crafted, no question, and while it has drawbacks, it offers lots of fun, innovative aspects as well.

Simply, this map shakes up the metagame, at least a bit. It definitely encourages a different play approach; at least it did from me.

For the past several weeks, I’ve been trying to decide if this map represents a brave new world of Scape or not. I’m still not sure. What I do think is that as long as the map pool is known ahead of time, this map is a fair and fun (though not easily mastered) battleground. (Be sure to practice on this one, if you get a chance.)

Tourney Directors need to be thoughtful about including this map and players need to be ready for a different experience. This map takes play in a new direction. I believe it is among the best of the best in terms of what it is trying to accomplish; I’ll leave it to TDs to decide if this is a map they want to see at their event and to determine how well it fits their metagame and map pool. Don’t expect the same-old, same-old with this map.

After far too many words, I vote YES to induct Striking Distance into the BoV.
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  #3429  
Old April 28th, 2010, 02:28 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

What an AWESOME and interesting review 1Mmirg. Unfortunately I've already repped you lately for your Genre and the Metagame thread.
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  #3430  
Old April 28th, 2010, 11:30 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Great review. The person I do most of my playtesting with has asked me every time we've got together since we've tested Striking Distance, "When do we get to test another map like that one with the split start zones."

This map no question represents a direction of innovation in map design that I'd very much like to see continue. Great players should be challenged by maps like these. Take the tried and true maps and a few maps like this into a tournament pool and I think it really shakes things up. Advantage goes to the best army builders and players -- for a while. There is just too much information out there about how to play the "You line up with all your guys on that side. And I'll line up with all my guys on this side. And we'll meet in the middle." Lots of new tactics can be used on maps like these and I think several more maps like these could impact power rankings too.

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  #3431  
Old April 28th, 2010, 11:42 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riggler View Post
Great review. The person I do most of my playtesting with has asked me every time we've got together since we've tested Striking Distance, "When do we get to test another map like that one with the split start zones."

This map no question represents a direction of innovation in map design that I'd very much like to see continue. Great players should be challenged by maps like these. Take the tried and true maps and a few maps like this into a tournament pool and I think it really shakes things up. Advantage goes to the best army builders and players -- for a while. There is just too much information out there about how to play the "You line up with all your guys on that side. And I'll line up with all my guys on this side. And we'll meet in the middle." Lots of new tactics can be used on maps like these and I think several more maps like these could impact power rankings too.
Thank you (not just to Riggler but to Kroc and others who have expressed appreciation about my review). This was the hardest review I've done; I'm glad the final result was worth something and valuable to some.

I do want to throw out one other thought. This map pushed the edge quite a bit (and at times in my early testing looked to be heading to a No vote). If it wasn't so well built in every other way, the proximity of the start zones to the opponent could have been disastrous.

I hope to see more excellent split zone maps (I love them, when done well), but also want to express some caution over how it is done. (And, of course, other judges may end up feeling like this map didn't quite pull it off; that's still to be seen.)

I am excited by many of the maps in the pool now and look forward to other excellent nominations--there are some great maps circulating out there. I am looking forward to what is to come.
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  #3432  
Old April 28th, 2010, 03:45 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riggler View Post
There is just too much information out there about how to play the "You line up with all your guys on that side. And I'll line up with all my guys on this side. And we'll meet in the middle." Lots of new tactics can be used on maps like these
While I don't think you meant otherwise, it's worth noting that there's a great diversity of tactics to be found in the realm of (pseudo-)symmetric, opposing start zone maps. The best tactics on, say, "Fire Isles" are very different than "Invasion", despite the fact that both use the vanilla 24-hexer start zone. Trying to play one like the other really won't work well for most armies.

There's also been a pretty significant level of innovation in startzone layouts even setting aside the split start zone concept. The two most recent BoV additions, "Fossil" and "Elswin Plateau", both spread the startzone out laterally. Dignan has pushed this concept further on maps like "Breach", "Just Passing Through", and "Riposte", and Longheroscaper took the concept to its extreme on "Hot Border". Even a relatively small tweak like Gamebear's single isolated start hex on "Common Ground" can have pretty profound tactical effects despite most of the army being in a vanilla start zone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riggler View Post
I think several more maps like these could impact power rankings too.
Absolutely. But make no mistake - the power rankings have already been heavily impacted by the evolution in map design in the last 18 months. If the tournament scene were still dominated by maps like "Mole Hills" and "Arctic Divide", there would not be four different non-flying melee squads in the "A" range. Many new maps coming out now reflect an understanding of how to create an interesting dynamic between ranged and melee figures, where almost no maps handled that dynamic so well in the past. ("Highways and Dieways" was far ahead of its time in this regard, but it doesn't seem like such an amazing outlier any more.)

As ollie often points out, the BoV is far from the be-all and end-all of the tournament map scene. But there's definitely a feedback effect - the BoV has both driven this evolution in map design, and simply reflected it.
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