Hydra Agents

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

For sure. Which part of the points going way up would be pricing out x3 builds

How big of a points bump are you talking about here?

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by japes

If you are down to one single attacking figure with low defense and they still have a Hero and squads...I don't think it matters if they are a squad of 3 or 4 there.

And if you kill all their Heroes they have an attack of 2.

Low defense heroes isn't the concern here, they are low point units and not expected to last long. Its when you have a 300+ point 6+ defense unit that can't defeat an group of nameless goons because they spread out and shoot at you from all directions (some gain HG) while you move around and take out 1 at a time. You eventually whiff on defense and lose before you can track down and take out all of them.


I played a ton of hero heavy armies vs. squad scape in Classic tournaments and the outcome was always the same. You roll defense dice so many times that you eventually whiff and take multiple wounds, while no matter how well you rolled attack dice, you were still only dealing 1 wound to a squad figure. Squads basically have Magical Defense, you can roll 6 skulls on 6 dice, you are still only dealing 1W at a time and their are 12 of them that need to be taken out.


It sucks all the joy out of playing named heroes. It's why mixing Marvel and Classic ultimately didn't work. I saw Hasbro Hulk fall to a Kato army of 2/1 Ashiguru and it's wasn't close. Even when you have a unit like Superman that gets blocks from blanks and shields both while rolling a lot of defense dice, it takes 12 OM's to take out 12 1 life squad figures. That is a long drawn out boring finish to a game.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

How big of a points bump are you talking about here?

The price points I'd consider trying are 100 per squad or 120 per squad if 100 didn't work.

[Arch-vile]

Cool with whatever here, but it’d probably be healthier overall to limit the amount of 4-man bonding squads in the game (especially ranged 3 attack ones - it’s so much firepower). Increasing point cost works, but that means the combo could potentially still be too much at 1100 or 1200 where you can afford the extra squad. And it’d be good to not cost them out of below-1000 point games.

Not saying either of those things is happening, just worth thinking about.

[Ericth74]

Originally Posted by Arch-vile

Cool with whatever here, but it’d probably be healthier overall to limit the amount of 4-man bonding squads in the game (especially ranged 3 attack ones - it’s so much firepower). Increasing point cost works, but that means the combo could potentially still be too much at 1100 or 1200 where you can afford the extra squad. And it’d be good to not cost them out of below-1000 point games.

Not saying either of those things is happening, just worth thinking about.

Personally I'm leaning toward a squad of 3 at 80 points.

Shiftrex is going to be testing them at a squad of 4 at 120 points, and I'm going to test a squad of 3 at 80. So we should a sample to look at. It's possible bonding ranged squads of 4 don't really work for us. 4 Melee squad figures probably does though.

[IAmBatman]

Looking forward to seeing results and going from there. I trust in the process.

These guys are basically 4th Mass with hero bonding for only 10 points more right now, though, so glad we are all recognizing they need to change somewhere!

[Ericth74]

Tested as a 3 figure squad at 80 points. I think this is a winner.


C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Hydra Agents

Version tested:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = HYDRA AGENTS

UNIQUENESS = COMMON SQUAD (3)
SPECIES = HUMAN
CLASS = TERRORISTS
PERSONALITY = FANATICAL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 6
ATTACK = 2
DEFENSE = 2

POINTS = 80

FANATICAL FOLLOWERS
After an ordered activation with a Unique Hero who is a Terrorist or in the Hydra faction, you may activate the Hydra Agents and then end your turn.

IN NEED OF LEADERSHIP
A HYDRA Agent has +1 Attack if it is within 4 clear spaces of a Unique Hero who is a Terrorist or is in the Hydra faction.

IMMORTAL HYDRA
When defending, figures in the Hydra faction have +1 Defense for each Hydra Agent that has been defeated this turn, even if all Hydra Agents are defeated.

FACTION = Hydra
PUBLISHER = Marvel
KEYWORDS =
SYMBOLS =

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: 1000 pts – Red Skull 240, Crossbones 160, Baron Strucker 220, Sin 140, Hydra Agents x3 240 VS 1000 pts – Iron Man 270, Captain America 240, Winter Soldier 240, Charlie-27 250

Spoiler Alert!

Damage Dealt: R2T2 Iron Man 1 wound
R3T1 Winter Soldier 1 wound
R3T2 Charlie-27 1 wound


FANATICAL FOLLOWERS: Used as often as it could be.

IN NEED OF LEADERSHIP: Got the bonus all the time. The heroes stayed alive longer than the Agents so it wasn't an issue to stay close by one.

IMMORTAL HYDRA: Baron Von Strucker seemed to really benefit from this power. Survived a few attack because he was rolling extra dice. Very helpful overall. Didn't help the Agents much though.

R1 – Cap hits Crossbones for 1 wound.

R2 – Crossbones hits Cap for 2 wounds.
Cap SA on Crossbones, Human Shield killing an Agent, No damage. Red Skull blocks(+1 Def). Winter Soldier attacks Crossbones(+1 Def) its blocked.
Strucker uses Death Spores, 1 wound on Iron Man. 3 Agents attack Iron Man(-1 Def), doing 1 wound.
Charlie-27 uses his BFG SA on 2 Agents, killing them both. Iron Man attacks and kills an Agent(+2 Def), Iron Man attacks Baron(+3 def) its blocked.
Sin attacks Charlie, its blocked. 2 Agents attack Cap, its blocked.
Cap uses his SA, killing 2 Agents and attacking Crossbones (+2 def) its blocked. Winter Soldier attacks up on Crossbones(+2 def and Height +1) and takes 1 wound.

R3 – Cap attacks Crossbones and defeats him. Winter Soldier attacks down on Red Skull doing 2 wounds.
Red Skull attacks Winter doing 2 wounds. 2 Agents attack Winter Soldier doing 1 wound. 1 Agent attacks Iron Man, its blocked.
Charlie-27 kills an Agent. Iron Man attacks Baron twice doing 3 wounds(+1 def/-1 def).
Baron uses Death Spores doing 1 wound each to Charlie and Iron Man. 2 Agents attack Charlie (-1 def), doing 1 wound.
Cap attacks and kills the last 2 Agents. Winter Soldier attacks Red Skull doing 1 wound.
Sin engages Charlie and attacks him, its blocked. Strucker get activated by Sin and attacks Charlie(-2 def) with his SA hitting Charlie for 2 wounds.

R4 – Cap uses his SA targeting Baron, Red and Sin. Sin takes 2 wounds. Winter takes out Red Skull and OM 1.
Iron Man and Charlie both attack Baron, Baron takes 1 wound from Charlie.
Baron takes a risky disengage for no damage and hits both Charlie and Iron Man for wounds with Death Spores defeating them both, but missed Cap.
Cap attacks Sin and Baron with his SA, it defeats Baron, and does 1 wound to Sin. Winter defeats Sin.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Captain America 2 wounds/3 life left, Winter Soldier 3 wounds/2 life left.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: City Park
Units: 1000 pts – Red Skull 240, Crossbones 160, Baron Strucker 220, Sin 140, Hydra Agents x3 240 VS 1000 pts – Fantastic Four

Spoiler Alert!

Damage Dealt: R2T3 Mister Fantastic 1 wound
R2T3 Mister Fantastic 1 wound
R3T2 Mister Fantastic 2 wounds
R4T2 Thing 1 wound
R5T3 Thing 1 wound


R1 – Movement. 2 Agents take a shot at Thing, he blocks them.

R2 – Sue attacks and kills an Agent. Torch kills an Agent.
Crossbones attacks Reed, its blocked. Red Skull attacks Reed doing 1 wound.
Torch attacks Red Skull, its blocked.

Sin attacked up on Sue doing 2 wounds. Crossbones is activated because Sin is engaged. Crossbones attacks Reed(-2 def) doing 1 wound.
Torch moves in and Flames On on Skull and Crossbones, doing 2 wounds to both and taking a swipe wound from Red Skull. Reed attacks down on Sin doing a wound and taking a wound.
Strucker releases Spores but does no damage to Thing. 3 Agents attack doing 2 wounds.

R3 – Full Fan4 turn. Thing kills an Agent. Sue attacks Sin(+1 def) from range its blocked. Torch kills an Agent(+1 def). Reed hits Sin from range for 2 wounds.
Crossbones attacks thing twice(-2 def). Red Skull attacks Human Torch from range and defeats him.
Thing attacks and defeats Sin. Reed kills an Agent.
Strucker releases Spores but misses but Thing and Reed. 3 Agents attack Reed, he goes down when he blanks his third defensive roll.
Thing kills an Agent.
Strucker uses his SA and defeats Sue(4 skulls/1 shield). 3 Agents attack Thing, all are blocked.

R4 – Thing kills an Agent.
Crossbones hits Thing for 2 wounds. Red Skull attacks Thing Twice both are blocked.
Thing hits Strucker for 3 wounds.
Strucker rolls 5 skulls on his SA but Thing rolls 4 skulls so Strucker takes a wound. An Agent hits Thing for a wound.
Thing kills Strucker and OM3.

R5 – Thing engages Red Skull and does 3 wounds to him defeating him and OM1.
Thing defeats an Agent.
Crossbones attacks Thing from range doing a wound.
An Agent attacks Thing but is out of range for the attack bonus, and misses.
Thing attacks up in Crossbones doing 1 wound.
Crossbones attacks Thing and does 1 wound. An Agent with in range of Crossbones attacks down on Thing doing the last wound and defeats him.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Crossbones 1 wound/3 life left, 1 Hydra Agent left

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: Two close games that could of gone either way. I really think that dropping to 3 figures and staying at 80 points is the fix to go with here.

[Tornado]

Nice work.

[IAmBatman]

Sounds good to me.

[Yodaking]

Great news! I was hoping we could keep the 80 point cost going, those armies look fun.

[Shiftrex]

Tested as a 4 figure squad at 120 points (strucker's d20 ability as once per round).


C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Hydra Agents

Version tested:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = HYDRA AGENTS

UNIQUENESS = COMMON SQUAD (4)
SPECIES = HUMAN
CLASS = TERRORISTS
PERSONALITY = FANATICAL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 6
ATTACK = 2
DEFENSE = 2

POINTS = 80

FANATICAL FOLLOWERS
After an ordered activation with a Unique Hero who is a Terrorist or in the Hydra faction, you may activate the Hydra Agents and then end your turn.

IN NEED OF LEADERSHIP
A HYDRA Agent has +1 Attack if it is within 4 clear spaces of a Unique Hero who is a Terrorist or is in the Hydra faction.

IMMORTAL HYDRA
When defending, figures in the Hydra faction have +1 Defense for each Hydra Agent that has been defeated this turn, even if all Hydra Agents are defeated.

FACTION = Hydra
PUBLISHER = Marvel
KEYWORDS =
SYMBOLS =

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: 360 Hydra Agents (x3)
240 Red Skull
220 Strucker
170 Bullseye
10 For the Right Price
VS Mr. Fantastic
The Thing
The Human Torch
Invisible Woman

Spoiler Alert!

Early: F4 took the middle high ground almost immediately, bad guys spread out on level 2 and lower with a line of agents up in the front to prevent heroes from engaging them. Agents throw a ton of attacks into the human torch looking for him to blank, 2 OMs go onto Red Skull to get consistency in the attacks. Eventually put 3 wounds on him in the course of a turn while the rest of the F4 is developing. Reed comes up and gets hit for 2 wounds as well, combination of Strucker stepping forward to use his once per round d20 and then agents forming a wall in front of him. Used the agents pretty defensively for the first game because I had a lot more of them.

Mid: Thing made it up and the f4 defense began to hold really well, pulled Reed back so he couldn't be shot at as easily even with the agents developed onto the side of the board on level 3. Thing was on level 3 of the map, agents tried to double engage and block him. Tried to get him to whiff twice and Thing punished by auto-wounding 2 agents even with them getting 2 and 3 skulls. Red Skull runs around the side of the map and gets a melee attack in on Sue but it whiffs and she is able to reposition. Torch whiff against and goes down to 1 life so I have him pick a spot and go super nova near strucker and a ton of agents. Decent roll of 4 and the immortal hydra ability comes into effect, 4 agents die and 1 survives (they rolled a lot of zeros even with 5 and 6 defnese). Strucker takes no wounds due to so many agents dying.

Late: Strucker puts wounds on torch (finishing him) and thing. Thing ignores strucker and goes for Red Skull, putting him down in one go. Strucker tries to get an electric arm attack in on Sue that puts 3 wounds on her. Thing answers by bashing him in the head and Reed moves up again. About 2 agents and Bullseye left on the board at this point, Reed's defense holds against everything and the F4 clean up pretty easily here.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Reed 1 life, Sue 2 life, Thing 3 life.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: 240 Hydra Agents (x2)
240 Red Skull
220 Strucker
140 Sin
160 Crossbones
VS 1000 pts – Fantastic Four

Spoiler Alert!

Early: Won initiative and got to move all my heroes with Strucker before turn 1, used this to push hard for development on the side of the board so I could secure level 3 by the second turn. F4 answered with full family activation and took center of board. Focused reed hard with shots from Red Skull and full hydra squad on level 3, forcing him to take early wounds and have to back off while Torch took shots from the center of the map and Thing walked on the land bridge to start killing agents one at a time. I valued 2 OMs on Red Skull and 1 and Strucker at first then switched it up to put 1 OM on each hero starting with Red Skull and having Sin take OM 2.

Mid: Tried to pull aggro by having Strucker and some remaining agents move towards the center of the board from start zone, Thing ignored this at first while Torch did some fighting and Sue repositioned on level 3 in center of the board to cover Thing moving farther out. Torch blanked on a critical roll putting 3 wounds on him, Strucker failed to wound him but put a wound onto the Thing. Thing put another agent down and then went and killed Red Skull in one hit. Thing then disengaged from a single agent (taking a wound) and then went over to the agents and Strucker that were pushing for center board. Agents engaged to thing never took attacks and tried to spread out to get a lot of shots while remaining within 4 of a hero.

Late: Sin was engaged with Sue, her defense held out forever while Sue and Torch kept moving away by one space to attack her. She ended her turn engaged and had Strucker put out another round of wounds that put torch at 1 and Thing at 3 life. Thing put Strucker down after this, Torch put Sin down right after she killed Sue. Lategame was 3 agents and Crossbones vs 1 life torch and 3 life thing. Torch went super nova on an intiaitive win and killed 3 agents and put 1 wound on crossbones even with immortal hydra helping them (4 skull roll). Crossbones finished him off. Thing chased Crossbones around for a while who eventually threw a 4 skull attack and Thing wiffed, matching move but with range comes in handy during a round.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Crossbones 2 life left

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: Second game was a lot closer. Having Red Skull and other heroes around to spread out through the formation makes them pretty consistent and the mass activations of 5 to 6 ranged attacks depending on what heroes you have makes it pretty likely to break through high defense. Strucker at once per round is still really strong and he can easily get in key positions to gas 2 or even 3 people against a build like the F4.

80 points makes army building a lot easier. I think if we go down to a 3 man squad that they won't suffer a lot, they may not break through defense on some turns but this army has plenty of ways to throw small but consistent attacks at a good range. I never had any issues getting at least 3 agents in position to attack.

Immortal Hydra didn't help much in my games but maybe I'm just unlucky, I think it's solid in concept but a smart player can choose who gets effected in what order to make a favorable outcome when dealing with AoE. I think the army can present enough threats and spread them around so that it's hard for a hero based army to figure out which head of the hydra to cut off first. Red Skull is definitely the priority, when he drops it's hard to maintain flexibility with a contracted hero in certain builds and he's the other sturdy hero besides Strucker.

With squads at 80 I can likely find a way to fit in a better option using For the Right Price like Deathstroke. At 120 I'm not able to get an expensive heroes immediately outside the Hydra faction as easily.

[IAmBatman]

Just as a point of clarification, you weren't rerolling Hydra Agent attacks with Red Skull, were you?