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C3G Legacy Library This is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.

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  #277  
Old October 11th, 2012, 04:45 PM
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You address C3G OMNIPOTENCE - tread carefully!
 
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

I think the reason they decided they didn't need to specify "uncommon" is because of the phrase "You may draft this figure into the same army with any other Tony Stark figures that don't have the class of Engineer". So basically the word "any" overrides the Unique, the name, etc.
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  #278  
Old October 11th, 2012, 04:48 PM
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

It doesn't actually make them Uncommon Heroes, it just lets you draft them as if they were, because you're able to draft any other Tony Stark figure without the normal limitations that would be in place.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #279  
Old October 11th, 2012, 05:10 PM
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

Quote:
Originally Posted by A3n View Post
Yes, I didn't check that FAQ. But I am still of a mind that the FAQ is actually wrong. The power DOES NOT make them uncommon heroes. So yeah I am kind of disappointed in us for not making the correct decision here. The power would need to be changed if you guys want it to use multiple Unique Heroes. It would need to state that "the figures are now Uncommon Heroes instead of what is listed on the card".
I agree with A3n here. I'm not seeing how the word 'any' suddenly changes the basic rules on multiple unique heroes in an army. It only changes the rules on multiple Tony Stark heroes in an army, since that is what follows the word 'any' in the special power text. I'm not opposed to the idea of having multiples of the same suit in play via this power by any means. The card just needs to clarify that.

SLAVE CIRCUIT
You may draft this figure into the same army with any other Tony Stark figures that do not have the class of Engineer, those figures are now considered uncommon heroes. At the start of the game, all other Tony Stark figures you control are chosen for Slave Circuit and have the species of Android, instead of what is listed on the card. After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with this Iron Man, you may take a turn with one other Tony Stark figure you control.

If you are really opposed to changing the card, I'm also okay with just leaving it with the FAQ in place as is. I doubt I would reprint the card over this anyways. It is just that technically speaking, within the game rules, the change should be made. Otherwise you run the risk of setting a precedent now that may cause complications with a later design.
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  #280  
Old October 11th, 2012, 05:14 PM
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You address C3G OMNIPOTENCE - tread carefully!
 
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

I'm torn on the issue. After seeing it point out to me, I don't feel the need to change the wording. I think the "any" takes care of the problem.

However, I did go 6 months without noticing that it worked that way (though one quick look at the FAQ would've fixed that), so maybe a word update could help future newbs. I'll leave it up to the big wigs.
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  #281  
Old October 11th, 2012, 05:17 PM
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

The only difference between Unique Heroes and Uncommon Heroes is that you can draft more than one Uncommon Hero with the same name in your army. But C3G changed the Unique Hero rule a bit: with C3G, only the secret identities need to be different.

This power overrides the C3G rule. Now you can draft more than one Unique Hero with the same secret identity as long that identity is Tony Stark. In other words, it makes all figures with the Tony Stark secret identity uncommon heroes.

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  #282  
Old October 11th, 2012, 05:18 PM
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

I believe you could interpret "any" in two different ways there. The FAQ establishes how we decided to interpret it. Open and shut, IMO.

Edit: And the reason we decided to interpret it that way is due to the way C3G Secret Identity rules work - thanks quozl for pointing that out.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #283  
Old October 11th, 2012, 05:32 PM
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clembo2021 View Post
I think the reason they decided they didn't need to specify "uncommon" is because of the phrase "You may draft this figure into the same army with any other Tony Stark figures that don't have the class of Engineer". So basically the word "any" overrides the Unique, the name, etc.

See I read it as something totally different. You interpreted that it explicitly allows the use of multiple units based on the words "any other" and I read it as if it makes them all mutually exclusive.

Think of it like this. If I have a set number of items in my hand (comparable to a given set of unique draft cards) and you choose one to pick up. Then I tell you that "you may choose any other items to also pick up". I have just given you permission to choose from the remaining items in my hand (just as if you would be able field your army of the remaining unique draft cards), correct? So by the very action of giving you only the choices that were present from the start, and by not specifying that at any time those available choices were changed. the only thing I have really done is given you permission to pick up more items from the previous choices.

However that statement in no way shape or form implies that you may adjust the rules of reality and copy items that are in my hand. Nor does it imply that the rules for fielding figures with the same name are suspended.

Even if you did manage to skew the interpretation of the wording to imply something that could only be true with the preconceived notion that uniques exist in numbers larger than 1. It still does not give you the ability to have multiple unique figures on the battlefield at once that share the same name. So you would be left with no way to bring out your doubles/triples/quadruples etc, etc, once the original fielded unit had been destroyed.


I am most definitely not saying that your ruling is wrong or that you can not do what you are saying should be allowed based on your intentions. I am just saying that the card does not appear to express what you intended for it to do in a clear way.

“Have you ever hoped for something? And held out for it against all the odds? Until everything you did was ridiculous? "
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  #284  
Old October 11th, 2012, 05:35 PM
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

The "other" in this case is any card other than this card.

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Originally Posted by Craig Van Ness View Post
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  #285  
Old October 11th, 2012, 05:38 PM
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
The "other" in this case is any card other than this card.
Right which implies any other from a given set of fixed cards. This sets the basis for where the interpretation can not equal what your intention was.

If the fixed number of cards does not include doubles of uniques then the verbiage cannot explicitly say so. And we know that it does not because the rules tell us (before being adjusted in this sentence) that you may only have one of each unique.

Edit: again I'm not saying I do not like the card or that I do not like what your intention for it to do is. I love that there is a card that allows you to have multiple Ironman figures like the comics had Drones. I'm just saying that the ruling does not match the direct verbiage present on the card. As long as the system states that the rulings are the "be all end all" then it doesnt matter if the card says "you can never touch water spaces" as long as the ruling says you can then I see no issue. There is just a confusion factor here.

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Last edited by ibechief; October 11th, 2012 at 05:44 PM. Reason: added more thoughts
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  #286  
Old October 11th, 2012, 05:42 PM
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

But you are not limited to just one card for each Unique Hero, just one Unique Hero in each army.

Also, in Heroscape the powers on the cards override the rules of the game.

Anyway, sure, there will always be powers that aren't crystal clear. Just ask in the threads and we'll do our best to explain the intent. In this case, the intent was to allow as many other Tony Stark figures (who aren't Engineers) as you like in your army.

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  #287  
Old October 11th, 2012, 05:49 PM
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
But you are not limited to just one card for each Unique Hero, just one Unique Hero in each army.

Also, in Heroscape the powers on the cards override the rules of the game.

Anyway, sure, there will always be powers that aren't crystal clear. Just ask in the threads and we'll do our best to explain the intent. In this case, the intent was to allow as many other Tony Stark figures (who aren't Engineers) as you like in your army.
I'm not sure that part that is bolded is relevant here. Since you do not draft cards for other peoples armies as well as your own.

I see where the card specifically overrides the ability to have no more than one secret identity. But I just do not see it present in the verbiage where it says that you may have two or more of each specific unique.

I'm not familiar enough with the way the FAQ work for C3G, so if the general rule is that what the FAQ says is true no matter the verbiage on the card then all I'm left with is clarity as the issue.

Which like you said is a battle all designers fight day and night.

I just wanted to throw it out there that I can see where A3n is coming from.

Edit: I guess what I am saying is that if you read the words only on the card (which is all most people have present when playing), no person would be able to argue that you can field two of a unique unit. Only the FAQ would support and prove that. I don't know how common it is to make cards that require the FAQ in order to be played right since I have not even begun to scratch the surface of all these customs and the system set up to govern them. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers either lol I'm just trying to understand where the interpretation difference is.

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Last edited by ibechief; October 11th, 2012 at 05:55 PM.
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  #288  
Old October 11th, 2012, 05:57 PM
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Re: The Book of Iron Man (Mark V)

And I definitely see where you're coming from! I'm just trying to explain the wording on the card. It's actually really cool that you're enjoying these cards so much that you've got passionate about the wording! We love to see that! Thank you so much for talking about this. It always helps to look at things again after we've stepped back from it for a few months or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Van Ness View Post
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