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C3G Legacy Archive of all the original discussions and workshops from the first stage of C3G.

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  #85  
Old November 11th, 2018, 09:30 PM
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Re: Alternatively

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
I'm not quite sure what the theme is, but why isn't a d20 roll instead of attacking?

~Dysole, trying to pare down
I don't know how closely you've been following the discussion, but the 2 big ideas for Justice League Dark synergy are Zatanna II being able to change die rolls to blanks and Constantine allowing D20 re-rolls, so I tried to fit a blank power and a D20 power in there. But we can change it to a D20 roll, maybe a D20 roll instead of attacking? It would make sense story-wise for Shade to want to work with Constantine more anyways, since they've crossed over a couple of times. So like this?
Quote:
MADNESS VEST
Instead of attacking with Shade, you may choose a Unique Hero Shade is engaged with. Roll the 20-sided die, adding 5 to the roll if the chosen Hero is Insane, Unstable, or Troubled. If you roll 15 or higher, you may choose an Unrevealed Order Marker on the chosen figure's card. Switch it with an Unrevealed Order Marker on this card. Both players may reveal these Order Markers normally on their turn instead of their other Order Marker of the same number. At the end of the round, all Order Markers moved by this special power return to the player who controlled the Order Markers before they were moved.
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  #86  
Old November 11th, 2018, 10:25 PM
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Re: Justice League Dark Brainstorming

I’d say 2 d20 powers is probably unnecessary, and don’t see the problem with the blanks mechanic you had. I’m also not seeing the appeal of Madness Vest. What benefit is it really offering? The possibility to trade an unrevealed X to have a possible secondary option when that numbered turn comes up? It’s not offering an extra turn unless I’m mistaken. Just seems like a lot of text and hoops for very little if any payoff. The Possession power seemed much cooler and beneficial.

Heres my attempt to simplify Madness Stream:
Quote:
MADNESS STREAM
At the end of the round, you may choose a friendly figure adjacent to Shade and roll the 20-sided die. Place Shade on an empty space exactly X spaces away from his original placement, where X equals the number rolled, then place the chosen figure on an empty space adjacent to Shade. If a figure cannot be placed, destroy it. Figures placed by this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
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  #87  
Old November 11th, 2018, 10:54 PM
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Re: Justice League Dark Brainstorming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkham View Post
I’d say 2 d20 powers is probably unnecessary, and don’t see the problem with the blanks mechanic you had. I’m also not seeing the appeal of Madness Vest. What benefit is it really offering? The possibility to trade an unrevealed X to have a possible secondary option when that numbered turn comes up? It’s not offering an extra turn unless I’m mistaken. Just seems like a lot of text and hoops for very little if any payoff. The Possession power seemed much cooler and beneficial.
Shade does need some sort of M-Vest power. The M-Vest is to Shade what the shield is to Cap and the claws are to Wolverine. The choice ultimately comes down to what we want to do with that 2nd power.

That being said, it doesn't have to be this M-Vest power, because the vest can do a whole lot of things. I personally think being able to steal OMs from opponents would be useful, even if you don't end up using them yourself. But if the general consensus is that that isn't worth it, there's a billion other things a reality-altering vest can do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkham View Post
Heres my attempt to simplify Madness Stream:
Quote:
MADNESS STREAM
At the end of the round, you may choose a friendly figure adjacent to Shade and roll the 20-sided die. Place Shade on an empty space exactly X spaces away from his original placement, where X equals the number rolled, then place the chosen figure on an empty space adjacent to Shade. If a figure cannot be placed, destroy it. Figures placed by this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
My one thought is that I want to make sure Shade can teleport without needing to bring somebody with him. Is that what this wording would do?

Last edited by MrNobody; November 11th, 2018 at 11:13 PM.
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  #88  
Old November 11th, 2018, 11:24 PM
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Blank Space

The reason I asked about the d20 is because the power is complex because it has several conditions to activate and then it does something. I'm just trying to reduce the number of things. I get that you're going for synergy, but hit your theme first and then tweak for synergy.

~Dysole, who'll look at proposed options later
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  #89  
Old November 11th, 2018, 11:31 PM
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Re: Justice League Dark Brainstorming

I’d like to see what else you can come up with for the vest. Something maybe simpler on text.

We can figure out wording for the stream.
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  #90  
Old November 12th, 2018, 03:08 AM
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Re: Justice League Dark Brainstorming

I agree that brainstorming some other ideas besides stealing an OM would be worth exploring. I don't know the character but the theme seems to be pretty broad so I'll see if anything comes to mind.
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  #91  
Old November 12th, 2018, 12:16 PM
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Re: Justice League Dark Brainstorming

I'll see what I can come up with. I do think to do Shade justice, you need a power with a certain level of complexity and weirdness to it.

There are hundreds of specific things that Shade can do, but I don't feel giving him a specific power he can do like 'matter transmutation' or 'mind reading' would be accurate to the character. The concept of the Madness Vest is that it affects reality by tapping into the wild and unpredictable energy of Madness itself. Shade's main power is essentially just being able to harness weirdness, so I feel the only way to get the character right is to have a weird out-there power. I think a focus on how the power is sometimes out of his control would be a good way to go too.

Fwiw, I count my last draft at 16 lines, and I count Drac at 21 lines. For comparison, Captain Boomerang (George Harkness) has 17 lines by my count, the difference being he has 3 simpler powers while Shade has 2 chunkier ones. That's on the heavier side, text-wise, but I personally don't think it's out of control.
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  #92  
Old November 12th, 2018, 12:24 PM
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Re: Justice League Dark Brainstorming

The text isn’t my main issue. Smaller text doesn’t look great but it’s doable.

It’s the current first power feeling a bit flat. Jumping through hoops just to potentially swap and X for an opponent’s numbered order marker, is a lot for very little. It’s essentilly an elaborate over the top way to possibly make the opponent lose a single turn once per round and that’s it.

That comboed with an unreliable teleport akin to Mirror Master’s Througy the Looking Glass, just doesn’t seem like an overall interesting/useful enough design to me.

I’ll try and think of some other ideas for the Vest. I’m totally fine with playing the Vest up, not suggesting we go with something else, other than a different way to represent the power.
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  #93  
Old November 12th, 2018, 12:37 PM
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Re: Justice League Dark Brainstorming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkham View Post
The text isn’t my main issue. Smaller text doesn’t look great but it’s doable.

It’s the current first power feeling a bit flat. Jumping through hoops just to potentially swap and X for an opponent’s numbered order marker, is a lot for very little. It’s essentilly an elaborate over the top way to possibly make the opponent lose a single turn once per round and that’s it.

That comboed with an unreliable teleport akin to Mirror Master’s Througy the Looking Glass, just doesn’t seem like an overall interesting/useful enough design to me.

I’ll try and think of some other ideas for the Vest. I’m totally fine with playing the Vest up, not suggesting we go with something else, other than a different way to represent the power.
That's a fair point. There's a few other tricks he could pull off with that especially if you know where your opponent's OMs are, but even then it might not be worth it. I think it would also make him want to run with Loki and Ozy more than the JLD, which kind of seems to negate the whole 'soft synergy' philosophy. I'm down with replacing it, but I'm hoping I can provide some context about what we should be looking for to put in its place.

I might try to pick up the issues of JLD he's in some time this week. It might be helpful to see how his powers are depicted in the (relatively) more grounded N52 universe vs the more out-there Vertigo stuff like his own book or Hellblazer.
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  #94  
Old November 12th, 2018, 01:13 PM
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Re: Justice League Dark Brainstorming

A simplified and more useful version for what it currently is doing:
Quote:
MADNESS VEST
Whenever Shade attacks an Insane, Unstable, or Troubled figure, roll 2 additional attack dice. When rolling attack dice against an adjacent figure, you may remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random from the defending figure's card if at least two blanks are rolled.
Other possibilities...

Defense subtraction:
Quote:
MADNESS VEST
Whenever Shade attacks an Insane, Unstable, or Troubled figure, roll 2 additional attack dice. When rolling attack dice against an adjacent figure, the defending figure rolls one fewer defense die for each blank rolled.
Order Marker swapping in the same Army:
Quote:
MADNESS VEST
Whenever Shade attacks an Insane, Unstable, or Troubled figure, roll 2 additional attack dice. When rolling attack dice against an adjacent figure, if you roll at least two blanks, you may switch 2 Order Markers on Army Cards in the defending figure’s army.
Unblockables:
Quote:
MADNESS VEST
Whenever Shade attacks an Insane, Unstable, or Troubled figure, roll 2 additional attack dice. After attacking an adjacent figure, if the defending figure did not receive any wounds, you may roll one unblockable attack die against the defending figure for each blank rolled.
Just stuff like that has a feeling of madness and reality manipulation.
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  #95  
Old November 12th, 2018, 02:03 PM
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Re: Justice League Dark Brainstorming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkham View Post
A simplified and more useful version for what it currently is doing:
Quote:
MADNESS VEST
Whenever Shade attacks an Insane, Unstable, or Troubled figure, roll 2 additional attack dice. When rolling attack dice against an adjacent figure, you may remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random from the defending figure's card if at least two blanks are rolled.
Other possibilities...

Defense subtraction:
Quote:
MADNESS VEST
Whenever Shade attacks an Insane, Unstable, or Troubled figure, roll 2 additional attack dice. When rolling attack dice against an adjacent figure, the defending figure rolls one fewer defense die for each blank rolled.
Order Marker swapping in the same Army:
Quote:
MADNESS VEST
Whenever Shade attacks an Insane, Unstable, or Troubled figure, roll 2 additional attack dice. When rolling attack dice against an adjacent figure, if you roll at least two blanks, you may switch 2 Order Markers on Army Cards in the defending figure’s army.
Unblockables:
Quote:
MADNESS VEST
Whenever Shade attacks an Insane, Unstable, or Troubled figure, roll 2 additional attack dice. After attacking an adjacent figure, if the defending figure did not receive any wounds, you may roll one unblockable attack die against the defending figure for each blank rolled.
Just stuff like that has a feeling of madness and reality manipulation.
I don't know the character but mechanically, I Like the feel of pretty much all of these. Clear and functional. I only had to read them once to know what was going on.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #96  
Old November 12th, 2018, 02:26 PM
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Re: Justice League Dark Brainstorming

I guess what I'm trying to sort out right now is how to portray a powerset that isn't clear or functional at all while still trying to keep the mechanics as neat and concise as possible.

Arkham's options are decent. The only one that doesn't work for me thematically is the 3rd one.

Bought the issues of JLD he's in, I'll try to power through those this week.
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