The Pre-SoV Workshop

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Well met!

On a similar note, have you considered a protocol for revaluation?

I don’t think the C3V wants to change any previously released cards.

[Kinseth]

There is a group that does "Delta" pricing, you are free to run tournaments using those prices if you show wish. We aren't stopping you from playing how you want to in your events/at home.

[ollie]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I find it bizarre and contradictory that we - generally speaking- accept that certain units like the Imperium are overpriced and poorly designed for their output, and yet are unwilling to do anything to help them - per some of those commenting on this discussion.

While I also agree with others disputing your premises that they are overpriced and poorly designed, even accepting them I don't think you're in the right place.

The original designers never seemed to have much inclination to try to make everything equally powerful in one very restricted format. I don't see that as the reason we're here. I like that there is a wide spread of power. I like that there are many different formats to play the game. The C3V and SoV need to make sure that nothing gets overpowered in the 500pt environment, but that's a very different concern.

The CUC seems more in line with what you're trying to accomplish.


Edit. Also worth noting that this isn't official policy or anything; I'm one voter and other voters have different opinions and different weighting of the various factors.

[Leaf_It]

I can't help but feel like there's an unhealthy amount of pushback for synergy. I understand that a design must be quite good if synergy is going to make it through the SoV, but it feels like the moment synergy is brought up, there is an immediate disregard for the design.

Allow me to bring up the Shaolin Monks. They are a squad that is quite good against all melee, just like the EI, but they are trashed by range. How did Lao Xin get through? He is a blatant band-aid. His sole purpose is to bond with the monks. Sure, you added a few Monk Heros, so that he could act like Kantono Daishi, but it just looks hypocritical from the outside. Please understand, I like Lao Xin. I think that Lao Xin was good addition to the C3V, and I'm glad he was released. But how can you be okay with a design so obviously designed to make the Monks better, and then say that the EI can't have any synergy?

I have not spoken to, or ever interacted with QTbangerang, but I feel that this is exactly the kind of thing that made him do with he did. If you want to say that the design isn't good enough, that's fine. But you can't go and tell us that synergy can't happen, when the C3V does it too. Tell us that the design needs to be tighter. That it needs to fill it's own niche. That it needs to be stronger. That we need to take different approach. That to have synergy, it just needs to be better. Tell us what we CAN do to make it good enough for you. But please don't tell us that it can't happen, because it just reinforces the appearance of the C3V being a cliquey group that says "It's okay when we do it, but not when you do it."

I respect the experience, and knowledge that C3V/SoV have. My own designs would not be nearly as good were it not for the feedback I have received from them. Though I feel that it is impossible considering what I've said in this post, I do hope that you don't take this as an attack against the C3V. Sir_H's design probably needed some work, but the feedback basically told him that he can't have any synergy at all. This is where I am having a problem. I just simply don't understand why, when it comes to synergy, some designs are welcomed, while others appear to be shot down solely because of it.

[ollie]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

I understand that a design must be quite good if synergy is going to make it through the SoV, but it feels like the moment synergy is brought up, there is an immediate disregard for the design.

For me, it's somewhere between these two extremes. Other things being equal, synergising with units that are not already in some sort of synergy web is a negative. Similarly, helping a supposedly underpowered unit is neutral at best. This is true behind the scenes as well as in front. But there are lots of other considerations too.

[Dad_Scaper]

Nobody said he can't have any synergy at all.

Sir H., who has already demonstrated he's a designer who can get through this process and into SoV testing, correctly observed that there was pushback on both signature powers. So he took the unit back to think about it.

We voters are all our own people, and we vote for our own separate reasons. It is fair to say, and I did say, that units with built-in synergy to beef up forlorn common squads will have some pushback against them. I didn't say "never," and nobody said "never." It's been done, and I'm sure it will be done again. But the more brazen the role of ambulance, the more perfect the design better be elsewhere. I think that's a fair assessment of the way a unit is likely to be treated by the voters, and I, for one, like it that way.

Second, Qt. Bangerang had lots of issues, including his sincere, earnest, and completely unfounded accusation that capsocrates was stealing his design ideas. I appreciate what he brought as a designer, but that's the extent of it. If you want to share your constructive criticism, I want to hear it. But please take care about putting it in the mouths of others.

Third, I will write a few words about my defense of the presumption-against-forced-synergy. The iron triangle of a solid design is the theme must match the mini, the mini must match the mechanics, and the mechanics must match the theme. Anything extra should be discarded.

Fourth, some units should be bad. There are countless ways to play, and there are ways for every unit. Making the EI (or Roman Archers, or whatever) competitive in a traditional tournament game deprives them of part of what makes them special. My son took Sir Dupuis to GenCon last year and would have made Day 2 with him, but for losing out on the drawing. Where's the fun in that, if Sir Dupuis isn't special?

The Marro Drudge were absolute garbage from the moment they were stuffed in the SotM box. Even on swamp maps they are garbage. And yet, the original designers never lifted a finger to bail them out.

Leave them be. Leave all of them be. If you're making something better, do it in a way that is special and elegant. Not clumsy. Because otherwise, you're clumsily trying to fix something that ain't broke.

[Astroking112]

The impression that I've garnered, @Leaf_It , is not that members hate synergy, but that they hate synergy for the sake of synergy. It feels clumsy to make a unit solely boosting another one unless the method is very unique or brings a new style of play, and designing a unit to increase the viability of other ones naturally brings more scrutiny as a result.

With the exception of Lao Xin, I think that just about every unit that C3V has released that "boosts" an old unit does so in a unique fashion, whether it's 8th Infantry Pathfinders creating their own army, Tomoe Gozen only helping the Samurai after you've lost one, or Omegacron coordinating attacks between disparate squads.

I personally had qualms with General Kuah in this thread for the way that he implemented his synergies, but I think that there is plenty of room to make unique solutions still. If the design feels forced, then I think it doesn't feel quite right: the unit has to feel perfect in its purpose, and just so happen to "fix" an old unit by meeting its designer's vision. I don't intend to put words in anyone's mouth, but I believe that the goal is to avoid designing to boost a unit, not to avoid designing things that do boost units at all.

[caps]

We're an odd bunch in C3V. We all have varying ideas of where to draw the various lines in the sand that one must consider when creating canonical customs. I liked Xao Lin for the canon, I did not like Kantono Daishi for the canon* (my no vote is "public record" so to speak). Perhaps it is because Lao Xin primarily affects new units, with the Shaolin Monks as a bonus add-on, whereas Kantono Daishi affects exclusively previously released units. I'm not sure the Shaolin Monks are really *better* because Xao Lin is released. I'm not sure I can say the same for the extant ninjas and Kantono Daishi. That's the best I can do to put my gut instincts into words.

As an idea, I think reusing Gladiator Inspiration is pretty neat. As a way to boost the Einar Imperium I think it sounds pretty fun. As a good idea for the canon, I don't think it's a fit. As a design, I think it oversteps because the EI's main problem, as mentioned elsewhere, is their price and their defense against range. A CUC-style solution might be to give them Evasive 3 or somesuch.

On a sort of related note... I'm not excited about all the Medium Unique Fantasy heroes coming through SoV. Give me some Sci-Fi, some steampunk, some common (or unique!!!) squads, or some big ferocious beasties. But please no more stuff out of the D&D players handbook and it's accompanying splat books. Not for a while yet.

[Pumpkin_King]

It’s a lack of sci fi figures!

That being said, I might shelf the skeleton and look for a sci fi figure instead...

[Dad_Scaper]

I agree with Cap that we're an "odd bunch," but it's important to remember that we're also, I think, predictable. If you make a unit that is so perfect for the canon that we cannot say no, then we won't.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

It’s a lack of sci fi figures!

That being said, I might shelf the skeleton and look for a sci fi figure instead...

I'm preparing to submit a sci fi hero to SoV very soon. There are figures out there.

[flameslayer93]

On a sort of related note... I'm not excited about all the Medium Unique Fantasy heroes coming through SoV. Give me some Sci-Fi, some steampunk, some common (or unique!!!) squads, or some big ferocious beasties. But please no more stuff out of the D&D players handbook and it's accompanying splat books. Not for a while yet.

Designers are going to need more than just a bunch of OOP minis for that to happen.

That goes for the C3V designers too, though.