The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

I'd be okay with "a figure that does not have the Flying, or Stealth Flying ability" if that was acceptable, though why specifically fliers wouldn't work thematically, I don't have an answer.

@Scytale (and any other judges that want to share their take) would the wording of "a figure that is not a unique hero" be something that you would accept?

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

@Scytale (and any other judges that want to share their take) would the wording of "a figure that is not a unique hero" be something that you would accept?

It's fine for a submission as far as wording goes; we Editors will do what we need with it if it gets that far.

You may not get to the review stage with it, though. It kind of comes off as a hack to avoid certain interactions. (Which it is.) A unit needs to be a sharp, complete package, and obvious hacks don't get very far (not in C3V either). I don't know if people will have that reaction or not, honestly, though I can't think of a strong thematic reason an Assassin can't swap with a Unique Hero.

More importantly, though, I wouldn't allow it with any double-spaced figures, as that adds an extra world of trouble when swapping positions with a single-spacer. So no Large, even if Common.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Scytale

It's fine for a submission as far as wording goes; we Editors will do what we need with it if it gets that far.

You may not get to the review stage with it, though. It kind of comes off as a hack to avoid certain interactions. (Which it is.) A unit needs to be a sharp, complete package, and obvious hacks don't get very far (not in C3V either). I don't know if people will have that reaction or not, honestly, though I can't think of a strong thematic reason an Assassin can't swap with a Unique Hero.

I don't see it as a hack. I mean, is there a reason an Assassin would only swap with common figures? or Squad figures? Those were the other two options, and they make just as much sense. Excluding anything that is Small or Medium doesn't make sense, and is a "hack", as you put it, to try and balance the design. Specifying Squads and Commons is just an allowed "hack", while Unique Heros isn't for some reason. The push back to this is because nothing has specifically excluded unique heros like that. The things that have been excluded are Soulborgs, Undead, designs with Lava Resistant, and probably a few more that I don't remember. In those cases those aspects were thematically excluded. With the assassin no small or medium figure can thematically be excluded unless I restrict it to just Drow, or just figures with the Hide in Darkness ability. Honestly I'm tempted to do that, it's just really disappointing to reserve Shadow Shift to only the Drow, and Darrak.

Originally Posted by Scytale

More importantly, though, I wouldn't allow it with any double-spaced figures, as that adds an extra world of trouble when swapping positions with a single-spacer. So no Large, even if Common.

I'm not sure why you brought this up. Shadow Shift has specified small and medium since it had it's bonding removed. Even if I did allow large figures, I'd just specify single spaced figures, but I wouldn't want to allow large figures, because then we get to shift away Vulcanmechs, DW 9000, Brimstone, and all sorts of stuff that doesn't really make sense.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

I don't see it as a hack. I mean, is there a reason an Assassin would only swap with common figures? or Squad figures? Those were the other two options, and they make just as much sense. Excluding anything that is Small or Medium doesn't make sense, and is a "hack", as you put it, to try and balance the design. Specifying Squads and Commons is just an allowed "hack", while Unique Heros isn't for some reason. The push back to this is because nothing has specifically excluded unique heros like that. The things that have been excluded are Soulborgs, Undead, designs with Lava Resistant, and probably a few more that I don't remember. In those cases those aspects were thematically excluded. With the assassin no small or medium figure can thematically be excluded unless I restrict it to just Drow, or just figures with the Hide in Darkness ability. Honestly I'm tempted to do that, it's just really disappointing to reserve Shadow Shift to only the Drow, and Darrak.

I'm not really sure you need to change the restriction. "A small or medium figure you control that is not a unique hero" is ok with me personally; I can live with the thematic vagueness. Restricting it to "a small or medium Common figure you control" is more Scapy, and covers everything you intend it to cover. (Is there some unique squad you definitely want this to work with?) "A Drow figure you control" would be the most thematic, and I suspect would be sufficient for the design due to the other Drow restriction.

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

I'm not sure why you brought this up.

Because your question to me didn't include it in the sample text, and I wanted to make sure you didn't lose that restriction.

[Leaf_It]

Here's the Drow Assassin with all the changes thus far:


What are the thoughts on this latest version?

[Scytale]

Still says "taking a turn with a Drow figure" instead of Army Card, but other than that it looks pretty good. Oh, and "figures" should be capitalized in the last sentence of Shadow Shift.

[Astroking112]

I think that this new version of the Drow Assassin is considerably cleaner. The stats still feel a little too beefy to me, but the Drow Chainfighter does exist as a counterpoint. Assassinate clears up most of my concerns about potential frustration.

Originally Posted by The Long eared bat

I agree with some of the discussion earlier that the 10 point price doesn't feel quite right here. The design of an ambusher/threat will be significantly more fun to play with if it has 2 defense and 2-3 life, IMO, which is well worth the cost of bumping Olog up to 20-30 points. That makes putting OMs on him less risky and significantly more viable to use, and the 10 point space is already more crowded than 20 points filler with Marcu, which gives him more of a general purpose outside of his bonding armies.

Not a big fan of Disengage here. That feels more like an Utgar Orc power than a Valkrill Orc one, and a quick glance at the mini online shows that it lacks the armor that serves as the justification for Utgar's Orcs having Disengage in the first place. Since you're essentially designing a brute who wants to hit fast and hard and probably won't get a second chance, I think that Disengage is largely superfluous.

[The Long eared bat]

I can see where you are coming from with disengage not fitting the theme. I will be play testing him tomorrow to find the right points/Life combo.

[caps]

Huh? The blade gruts don't even *have* armor. Pretty sure that has nothing to do with disengage.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Huh? The blade gruts don't even *have* armor. Pretty sure that has nothing to do with disengage.

I must've gotten a wire crossed somewhere; I could've sworn that the Blade Gruts had some similar text to the Heavy Gruts talking about their armor catching enemy blades in its chinks or the like, which always bothered me due to their near complete lack of armor. I'm glad to hear that I just misremembered things.

That doesn't really change my feelings on Disengage for this design, though.

[Scytale]

Disengage doesn't really seem to be a D&D world Orc thing, but it's always been a Grut Orc thing. I suspect the mini isn't Grut Orc blue, so it's probably non-Grut, but that hasn't stopped us before. This one does seem similar to a Death Chaser, so I assumed D&D.

Which means it isn't an inherent thing, but I do see it as valuable to the design. This guy wants to rush in and burn out quickly, and having the freedom to get to a high priority target is valuable.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Disengage doesn't really seem to be a D&D world Orc thing, but it's always been a Grut Orc thing. I suspect the mini isn't Grut Orc blue, so it's probably non-Grut, but that hasn't stopped us before. This one does seem similar to a Death Chaser, so I assumed D&D.

Which means it isn't an inherent thing, but I do see it as valuable to the design. This guy wants to rush in and burn out quickly, and having the freedom to get to a high priority target is valuable.

Agreed, for any cheap filler, getting to the enemy is key to being useful. Almost every melee filler that doesn't fit into a bonding loop, has really good mobility. (unless they have range like McCreech, Kira Jax, or Saleena) The ninjas have Phantom Walk. Bol has Disengage. Marcu has flying. Maltis Tez has 7 move and Repositioning. Siiv has Disengage. The Chainfighter might not have a mobility ability, but they hae Chain Grab to compensate. My Assassin that I'm working on has Shadow Shift.

If Disengage isn't going to be used, there needs to be something else. Battle rush is nice, but it's only used once at the beginning of the game, and isn't enough on it's own. Since the idea is to rush in at the opportune moment, perhaps the Adrenaline Rush 2 ability that my Great Axes use would work. With 2 or 3 lives, you could risk a couple disengagement attacks, and rush the targeted figure.