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View Poll Results: Which two drafts are your favorite?
Kolakoski's Ullaria, Ice Queen of Ashra 1 4.76%
Lazy Orang's Queen Ashra 9 42.86%
Scytale's Queen Listaria 10 47.62%
Astroking112's Aerendyl 7 33.33%
Tornado's Queen Listaria 11 52.38%
All Your Pie's Elmarion 2 9.52%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old March 6th, 2019, 02:30 PM
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Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

NOTE: Voting is now closed. Please direct your attention to the design thread for continued discussion. Thanks!

Alrighty, we gathered a good number of drafts over the last week, so now it's time to decide which one of those drafts will be carried forward in the process. Vote for your two favorite drafts, and whichever one leads the poll at the end of this week will be baseline for the design we refine and test for SoV submission.

This is a public poll, of course, so everyone is free to weight in. If you submitted a draft for the project, you are encouraged to vote as well, though voting for your own design is prohibited. When voting on designs, I recommend focusing on broader concepts and ideas that you want to see applied, as small changes to stats and point cost can be accomplished later in the process.

Without further ado, here are the submissions:

kolakoski's Ullaria, Ice Queen of Ashra
Spoiler Alert!


Lazy Orang's Queen Ashra
Spoiler Alert!


Scytale's Queen Listaria
Spoiler Alert!


Astroking112's Aerendyl
Spoiler Alert!


Tornado's Queen Listaria
Spoiler Alert!


All Your Pie's Elmarion
Spoiler Alert!


Remember, vote for your two favorite drafts. This poll will remain open until the end of 3/13/19, a week from today. Best of luck to all submitted entries, and here's hoping to see all you voters chiming in on the design once we move to the next phase!

Last edited by All Your Pie; March 15th, 2019 at 05:13 PM.
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  #2  
Old March 6th, 2019, 05:41 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

Now that the poll is up, I'll expand a little on my thoughts on each entry.

Ullaria, Ice Queen of Ashra
Spoiler Alert!


The stats look fine to me, although I do feel like the 6 movement is a tad low for a mounted rider, even if the mount is wearing armor. Ashra's Call is a different way to get around bonding, but I'm not a big fan of the inconsistency of the D20 element here (I'd rather it was either just a more straightforward form of bonding or guaranteed if she was engaged, personally).

Freezing Spear Special Attack doesn't do much for me. I like the idea of her having a mystical weapon from Ullar like some of the past heroes, but I view those as being more fitting for standalone Unique Heroes to further flesh them out. Combining it with a synergistic design like this splits the focus in my eyes, which is a little too noticeable. I also feel like a Special Attack with Whirlwind Assault isn't that necessary--we've seen multiple methods of multiple attacks on heroes like Q10 before, but not really as a secondary element tied with synergy.

Queen Ashra
Spoiler Alert!


Elven Battle Dance is a very interesting way to tackle Elven synergies, and it's thematically linked to movement as well. I also like the reactive element and how you have plenty of inventive ways to use it: things like moving out of engagement after you realize what turn they'll take are just as engaging as moving into engagement to block figures. I would like to see the movement upped to 3 spaces since it requires Queen Ashra to be in the fray and is the most unique part of this design in my eyes, but I still really like this direction.

Ullar's Call is a nice secondary power for Elven Battle Dance. It might be more thematic to only count engaged Ullar figures, considering that you're likely to take Queen Ashra with mostly Ullar units anyways, but that's a balancing concern that could easily be addressed later.

The one thing that I don't really like about this design is Trained to Perfection. It feels too much like a C3G power to me rather than a Classic one, which although there's nothing inherently wrong with, leads it to feel a little out of place when aiming for the SoV. I'd much rather see a simpler offensive power, or better yet, no offensive power and just a higher base attack.

Queen Listaria
Spoiler Alert!


This is a solid and straightforward design. It feels like a neat blend of Sir Dupuis with the Elves, and I like how it subtly encourages Warriors of Ashra over the Aubrien Archers by pairing them nicely with Queen's Strike.

I don't really have any complaints here, other than that it feels a little familiar. This design is solid, though, and it probably feels the most "classic" out of all the submissions that I've seen.

Aerendyl
Spoiler Alert!


This was my own submission, so there isn't too much for me to comment on here. I think that a blend of Warlord and the Elves allows for some interesting cross-factional synergy in Ullar, and this figure looks spot-on as an Elven Warlord to me.

The lack of synergies with Romans ensures that they'll be a poor choice with her, which Ullar's Battle Dance works well with pretty much any Ullar squad, but particularly with the Armocs, on account of their bonding. A conditional disengage seems like a useful tool for them without being unthematic to me, but it's still left open to work solely with Elves if the player wants (and Elven Battle Call is added to reward either taking that route or mixing the two).

Queen Listaria
Spoiler Alert!


This lines up pretty well with what I'd personally do with the figure. The removal of Warlord as a class and addition of Snow Strength are the biggest changes here, neither of which bother me too much. I still think that Elven Battle Call and Ullar's Battle Dance are an interesting and thematic power set, and Snow Strength is a neat thematic touch that very heavily reminds me of figures like Nerak.

I do think that "Queen" can be dropped from the name if it's in the class, though, since none of the other Elves have their titles in their names.

Elmarion
Spoiler Alert!


Easy Prey is a pretty interesting power, and it's one that I wouldn't mind seeing explored in the future. It's pretty much spot-on for a hunter. I think that it feels a little off for an Elven Queen, but plenty of other nobles have gone hunting before.

I'm unfortunately not a big fan of Ullar Field Marshal. I think that the clause requiring her to be unengaged doesn't play too nicely with Easy Prey, or at least not fluidly enough that I wouldn't feel frustrated at least a couple of times when playing her. The two powers and relatively short aura range require her to slink around the battlefield, trying to pick off straggling figures, but if she fails at any point, then your entire plans for the round can be somewhat ruined. There's of course nothing inherently wrong with that idea; it just isn't to my tastes.
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Old March 6th, 2019, 07:18 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

I'll go ahead and give my thoughts as well.

Ullaria
I love the idea of an ice queen, but I don't know that it's thematically justified here, as it implies a sort of mysticism that the figure itself does not represent. Additionally, I think even with the restrictions placed on it Ashra's call is too close to reverse bonding to receive SoV approval. I think the conceptual ideas here would work better on a standalone hero, rather than a synergistic one.

Queen Ashra
I like a lot of what I see here, but I worry that this design is just a bit too much. Not in terms of point cost, as I wouldn't mind this design coming close to the 200 range, but just in terms of how many different things this one figure adds to your army. Thematically, I like the image of Elven Battle Dance, but combining that with a superb bonding figure and an initiative bonus creates a design with very few weaknesses in play.

Queen Listaria (1)
Repurposing Knight's Courage feels especially nice considering how rarely Sir Dupuis sees play, but I have to wonder if it adds enough to the game. Both powers are essentially reused, however I think their combination would work well when considering possible army builds. Elf Leadership is of course a fantastic boon to the Ashra, while Queen's Strike lets her crack enemies that the Aubriens can't touch. She could even be played with elf wizards in higher point games, without that limiting or detracting from her utility in other builds.

Aerendyl
I like Elven Battle Dance, and I like once-per-turn as the limitation that the base power certainly needs. My main gripe here is that combining Elven Battle Call with the Warlord class just seems a little off to me--it feels like a design that can only really use part of its card at once, depending on your army. Certainly this is also true of some official designs, but I nonetheless find it slightly inelegant. That said, I like the statline, and 3/6 defense/life might be what I push for once the initial design is decided.

Queen Listaria (2)
Of the options presented for this base powerset, This is the one I prefer. A non-bonding class forces tough OM choices in setting up Elven Battle Call, mitigated somewhat by a strong attack and the benefit of positioning Ullar's Battle Dance. My only real change to that core might be to boost Elven Battle Call to a +2 bonus, in order to further pay off the setup involved. I would, however, prefer Snow and Ice Enhanced Movement over Snow Strength, just because the jump from 5/4 to 6/5 seems too significant to be completely map-dependent--I feel Nerak gets away with it because he's only 50 points. That said, those numbers would be easy to adjust going forward.

Elmarion
Well, this is mine. I won't evaluate this design so much as go through my thoughts in making it, since that was asked for. I knew I wanted a conditional offensive power and a fairly useful movement synergy power. Easy Prey is meant to represent the way wolves hunt, going after lone stragglers rather than charging into the fray. I wanted the difference between having and not having the bonus to be stark to discourage playing her as a beatstick, complemented by the tactical value of Ullar Field Marshal to keep her useful even when not attacking. I also wanted to represent another version of the battle dance concept rather than a type of leadership power, as I felt that enough different versions of the latter were covered in the designs already submitted.
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Old March 6th, 2019, 08:36 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

I like those suggestions AYP. And just Listeria is cool for sure.
I liked that name the best and could not come up with a better one.
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Old March 6th, 2019, 10:41 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

Well met!


My comments in red.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Now that the poll is up, I'll expand a little on my thoughts on each entry.

Ullaria, Ice Queen of Ashra
Spoiler Alert!


The stats look fine to me, although I do feel like the 6 movement is a tad low for a mounted rider, even if the mount is wearing armor. Ashra's Call is a different way to get around bonding, but I'm not a big fan of the inconsistency of the D20 element here (I'd rather it was either just a more straightforward form of bonding or guaranteed if she was engaged, personally).


Apparently, the final design will have 7-8 Move. I'm a big fan of the "inconsistency of the D20," but I hear you.


Freezing Spear Special Attack doesn't do much for me. I like the idea of her having a mystical weapon from Ullar like some of the past heroes, but I view those as being more fitting for standalone Unique Heroes to further flesh them out. Combining it with a synergistic design like this splits the focus in my eyes, which is a little too noticeable. I also feel like a Special Attack with Whirlwind Assault isn't that necessary--we've seen multiple methods of multiple attacks on heroes like Q10 before, but not really as a secondary element tied with synergy.


Everything you point to as a negative, I see as the opposite. As part of what I perceived to be a consensus for this figure was that it be a hybrid leader/fighter that was most useful when engaged. An inherently "split focus" exists in "a hybrid leader/fighter." "[A] Special Attack with Whirlwind Assault" [may not have been] "that necessary," but it is desirable - both for how she looks and how she plays. She leads by example as a strong melee fighter, as much as by a pure leadership power. The leadership power (synergy) is the secondary element relative to the "multiple methods of multiple attacks" rather than the other way around.




Queen Ashra
Spoiler Alert!


Elven Battle Dance is a very interesting way to tackle Elven synergies, and it's thematically linked to movement as well. I also like the reactive element and how you have plenty of inventive ways to use it: things like moving out of engagement after you realize what turn they'll take are just as engaging as moving into engagement to block figures. I would like to see the movement upped to 3 spaces since it requires Queen Ashra to be in the fray and is the most unique part of this design in my eyes, but I still really like this direction.


I also liked this power a lot, so much so that I wouldn't mind replacing Ashra's Call with it.


Ullar's Call is a nice secondary power for Elven Battle Dance. It might be more thematic to only count engaged Ullar figures, considering that you're likely to take Queen Ashra with mostly Ullar units anyways, but that's a balancing concern that could easily be addressed later.


Also with this. Very Mogrimmish.


The one thing that I don't really like about this design is Trained to Perfection. It feels too much like a C3G power to me rather than a Classic one, which although there's nothing inherently wrong with, leads it to feel a little out of place when aiming for the SoV. I'd much rather see a simpler offensive power, or better yet, no offensive power and just a higher base attack.


The designer said this actually was a C3G power. Trained to Perfection seems very simple to me. I like that it addresses combat against squads and heroes; it is a thematically "hybrid" power. This design is close to the sweet spot between too simple and too complex, IMHO.


Queen Listaria
Spoiler Alert!


This is a solid and straightforward design. It feels like a neat blend of Sir Dupuis with the Elves, and I like how it subtly encourages Warriors of Ashra over the Aubrien Archers by pairing them nicely with Queen's Strike.

I don't really have any complaints here, other than that it feels a little familiar. This design is solid, though, and it probably feels the most "classic" out of all the submissions that I've seen.


I couldn't have said it better myself.


Aerendyl
Spoiler Alert!


This was my own submission, so there isn't too much for me to comment on here. I think that a blend of Warlord and the Elves allows for some interesting cross-factional synergy in Ullar, and this figure looks spot-on as an Elven Warlord to me.

The lack of synergies with Romans ensures that they'll be a poor choice with her, which Ullar's Battle Dance works well with pretty much any Ullar squad, but particularly with the Armocs, on account of their bonding. A conditional disengage seems like a useful tool for them without being unthematic to me, but it's still left open to work solely with Elves if the player wants (and Elven Battle Call is added to reward either taking that route or mixing the two).


Your design reflects your thinking in your criticism of Ullaria. Synergy being primary here, the only change I'd suggest would be to add 1 or 2 to her Defense (and lower her Life to 5).

Queen Listaria
Spoiler Alert!


This lines up pretty well with what I'd personally do with the figure. The removal of Warlord as a class and addition of Snow Strength are the biggest changes here, neither of which bother me too much. I still think that Elven Battle Call and Ullar's Battle Dance are an interesting and thematic power set, and Snow Strength is a neat thematic touch that very heavily reminds me of figures like Nerak.

I do think that "Queen" can be dropped from the name if it's in the class, though, since none of the other Elves have their titles in their names.


Similar to Aerendyl, with more appropriate stats (see above).


Elmarion
Spoiler Alert!


Easy Prey is a pretty interesting power, and it's one that I wouldn't mind seeing explored in the future. It's pretty much spot-on for a hunter. I think that it feels a little off for an Elven Queen, but plenty of other nobles have gone hunting before.

I'm unfortunately not a big fan of Ullar Field Marshal. I think that the clause requiring her to be unengaged doesn't play too nicely with Easy Prey, or at least not fluidly enough that I wouldn't feel frustrated at least a couple of times when playing her. The two powers and relatively short aura range require her to slink around the battlefield, trying to pick off straggling figures, but if she fails at any point, then your entire plans for the round can be somewhat ruined. There's of course nothing inherently wrong with that idea; it just isn't to my tastes.


This design came out of left field for me. Easy Prey/Tricky is the opposite of what I perceived consensus to be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
I'll go ahead and give my thoughts as well.

Ullaria
I love the idea of an ice queen, but I don't know that it's thematically justified here, as it implies a sort of mysticism that the figure itself does not represent. Additionally, I think even with the restrictions placed on it Ashra's call is too close to reverse bonding to receive SoV approval. I think the conceptual ideas here would work better on a standalone hero, rather than a synergistic one.



I hear you. Naming was hard, and some sort of queen seemed to be the way to go. But implied mysticism? I struggled with what leadership power to include. I'd gladly replace Ashra's Call with either of Queen Ashra's leadership powers. Leader/fighter hybrid could be read as standalone/synergistic hybrid - can stand alone, but has a leadership capacity.


Queen Ashra
I like a lot of what I see here, but I worry that this design is just a bit too much. Not in terms of point cost, as I wouldn't mind this design coming close to the 200 range, but just in terms of how many different things this one figure adds to your army. Thematically, I like the image of Elven Battle Dance, but combining that with a superb bonding figure and an initiative bonus creates a design with very few weaknesses in play.


Probably the general fault finding with Ullaria, too - and why this is my favorite among the designs not my own.


Queen Listaria (1)
Repurposing Knight's Courage feels especially nice considering how rarely Sir Dupuis sees play, but I have to wonder if it adds enough to the game. Both powers are essentially reused, however I think their combination would work well when considering possible army builds. Elf Leadership is of course a fantastic boon to the Ashra, while Queen's Strike lets her crack enemies that the Aubriens can't touch. She could even be played with elf wizards in higher point games, without that limiting or detracting from her utility in other builds.

See my comments on this design above in Astroking's quote.

Aerendyl
I like Elven Battle Dance, and I like once-per-turn as the limitation that the base power certainly needs. My main gripe here is that combining Elven Battle Call with the Warlord class just seems a little off to me--it feels like a design that can only really use part of its card at once, depending on your army. Certainly this is also true of some official designs, but I nonetheless find it slightly inelegant. That said, I like the statline, and 3/6 defense/life might be what I push for once the initial design is decided.


See my comments on this design above in Astroking's quote.

Queen Listaria (2)
Of the options presented for this base powerset, This is the one I prefer. A non-bonding class forces tough OM choices in setting up Elven Battle Call, mitigated somewhat by a strong attack and the benefit of positioning Ullar's Battle Dance. My only real change to that core might be to boost Elven Battle Call to a +2 bonus, in order to further pay off the setup involved. I would, however, prefer Snow and Ice Enhanced Movement over Snow Strength, just because the jump from 5/4 to 6/5 seems too significant to be completely map-dependent--I feel Nerak gets away with it because he's only 50 points. That said, those numbers would be easy to adjust going forward.


See my comments on this design above in Astroking's quote.

Elmarion
Well, this is mine. I won't evaluate this design so much as go through my thoughts in making it, since that was asked for. I knew I wanted a conditional offensive power and a fairly useful movement synergy power. Easy Prey is meant to represent the way wolves hunt, going after lone stragglers rather than charging into the fray. I wanted the difference between having and not having the bonus to be stark to discourage playing her as a beatstick, complemented by the tactical value of Ullar Field Marshal to keep her useful even when not attacking. I also wanted to represent another version of the battle dance concept rather than a type of leadership power, as I felt that enough different versions of the latter were covered in the designs already submitted.

See my comments on this design above in Astroking's quote.


Of course, as no one voted for my design . . .



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  #6  
Old March 7th, 2019, 09:51 AM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

I love what you all are doing here and have enjoyed following the design process. As a microbiologist though, I feel compelled to mention that the name Listaria really turns me off:

https://www.cdc.gov/listeria/index.html
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Old March 7th, 2019, 12:54 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat View Post
I love what you all are doing here and have enjoyed following the design process. As a microbiologist though, I feel compelled to mention that the name Listaria really turns me off:

https://www.cdc.gov/listeria/index.html
I knew something was bothering me about the name! Thanks for pinpointing it for me.
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Old March 7th, 2019, 01:13 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

I was thinking the same thing about Listeria, haha.

My favorite of these is Tornado's Queen Listaria. Ullar's Battle Dance is a nice thematic power that should help the Ashra move into engagement and thus get to use their defensive power. Elven Battle Call is a great power that isn't just a straight boost like most leadership abilities. I do think she would be better with higher defense due to wanting to stay engaged, so either making her stats 5/5 or swapping the attack and defense so she is 4/5. Snow Strength is something I can take or leave; it adds very little to the card but if she needs a little extra something and it's thematic go ahead and include it.
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Old March 7th, 2019, 01:28 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

I really really want to like Astro's entry, but I just feel that the powerset will feel out of place in any army.

Not probably worth an Order Marker in an Ashra army or an Elf Wizard army, but putting her in an Armocs army wastes the second power.

So Scytale's and Tornado's entries got my votes. Those seemed the most likely to be a good piece of an army.
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Old March 7th, 2019, 02:07 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

I do not consider it my design but I know that is the easiest way to reference it. I just took my favorite pieces of each design. I like all the suggestions. My meta for classic is pretty weak nowadays. I did not even remember there was another snow power.
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Old March 7th, 2019, 02:09 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
I do not consider it my design but I know that is the easiest way to reference it. I just took my favorite pieces of each design. I like all the suggestions. My meta for classic is pretty weak nowadays. I did not even remember there was another snow power.
Whatever turns out here, I hope we can all adopt the winning design as "our design" rather than whoever's name is in front of it right now.
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Old March 7th, 2019, 02:25 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I really really want to like Astro's entry, but I just feel that the powerset will feel out of place in any army.

Not probably worth an Order Marker in an Ashra army or an Elf Wizard army, but putting her in an Armocs army wastes the second power.
I wanted to encourage mixing the factions and experimenting with her a little bit, although I agree that the basic design works just as well for the Elves without the bonding class and cutting out Armocs entirely (I also voted for Tornado's entry as a result).

I do think she'd be worth OMs in an Ashra/Aubrien army to get her engaged and into position for the Battle Dance, but if she's just taken with Elves anyway then there isn't a reason for being a Warlord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Whatever turns out here, I hope we can all adopt the winning design as "our design" rather than whoever's name is in front of it right now.
Agreed. My own submission was basically just taking stuff that I liked from the discussion and brainstorming, so I wouldn't claim that I'm responsible for it. I'm sure that even the more unique entries were influenced to some degree by the discussion as well, so we've likely all had at least somewhat of a hand in just about every one of these designs.
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