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  #13  
Old February 24th, 2014, 05:30 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

NEW - Viceron the Blood Knight



Much the same as Viceron the Bloody with a few name changes. The biggest alteration is to the special attack being changed from a cone to Brimstone's AoE blast for wording purposes. I'm going to miss that cone, but the ability plays rather similarly to the cone overall and still remains distinct from Brimstone in how they actually play. Most notes to Viceron the Bloody apply equally here. I am leaving Viceron the Bloody for posterity sake for those who are interested in cones.

Last edited by Ixe; March 18th, 2014 at 01:53 AM. Reason: Updated wording. Point change
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  #14  
Old February 24th, 2014, 05:31 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

Knights of Elguard


The figures used are the Scourge Hellknight from Pathfinder Battles Legends of Golarian, the Hellknight Signifier from Pathfinder Battles Legends of Golarian, the Dread Guard from D&D Archfiends, and the Cleric of Nerull from D&D Dragoneye. While I am uncertain as to the availability of the first two, I found about 40 and 30, respectively, on abprices for the other two. All sell for about $5 each.

Here are the Knights of Elguard, a band of dark knights capable of harvesting souls of their foes to protect them in battle. They can even trade these souls in to perform a dark resurrection and bring back one of their own fallen members.

Their Shield of Lost Souls ability is a direct defensive version of the Tagawa Samurai's Bloodlust power. The fact that this power harvests souls instead of experience from destroying may cause thematic tension when they kill soulborgs and undead and whatnot, but I have a general dislike of doing the type laundry list of powers and having thematic breaks with future types. However, many constructs like golems are said to have an elemental powering them and I see no reason why they couldn't harvest the soul of that. Soulborgs have soul right in the name, suggestive that their programming has grown to the point where there might be really something there. Undead are often referred to as soulless creatures, or at least the non-sentient variety like zombies and skeletons. Still, they do have some sort of necromantic spark of unlife that makes them move in the first place so I don't think it's unreasonable for the Knights of Elguard to take some of that power and use it for their own purposes. Lastly, for the Viking Spirits, there's no reason to think that their shield of lost souls doesn't only take part of the essence and leave it largely intact to provide whatever particular boost.

In practice, Dark Resurrection and Shield of Lost Souls interacts in a very interesting way. I live the idea of being able to trade in resources, and I am very pleased that it is in fact a choice between bringing back a Knight but giving up on your defensive boosts. The fact that it is done at the end of the turn is not so crippling to avoid it (since it is already a challenge and trade off to get), but will at least leave your defenses down until your next turn.

Thematically, I feel Merciless fits them fine but I have no issue with changing it to something else. I don't think they are quite human anymore with all the dark things that they've become mixed up in, but I wouldn't go as far to say that they are undead. I could see calling them something like Dark Knights instead of Knights, but Sir Dupuis and Concan get along fine with Phantom Knights so I wouldn't sweat that minimal piece of synergy.

In practice, 4 attacks of 4 is nothing to sneeze at but they are still vulnerable as a unique squad to losses of units translating into a drop in efficacy. I had played them at 5 starting defense for a while which made them more robust to early losses, but I feared that that was a bit too much given that there were 4 of them. They could pull their weight even if they didn't kill their point total by weathering attacks by your opponent. Since they always have the chance to claw back (albeit at a 3:1 kill ratio), the opponent has more incentive than usual to wipe them out entirely rather than just leaving them crippled. While the prospect of them with good early turns and standing behind a wall of defense is intimidating, some will inevitably fall to even low attacks and everything they've gained can be erased in an instant when they try to bring one of their own back.

Their constant trade off in abilities makes them challenging to price. Sometimes they suffer early losses and can't quite manage to pull out of it. Others they remain strong or claw back from the brink and destroy an absurd point total. As a unique squad, they are inherently limited in how much they can accomplish.

They are as vulnerable to range as any other melee unit, but can be devastating when they get in close. 4 attacks of 4 means they aren't terrible at slaying heroes, but they really shine against low attack and defense squads that they can cut through all day. When faced with high defense squads like the Sentinels, their engine is ground to a halt and they flounder. High attacks also can reliably punch through their defense that they are otherwise so dependent on, and unblockable wound and destroy effects always spell trouble for high point squads (particularly unique ones).

In all, I think they are offering something very novel and interesting with the resource management provided with their souls. I also really like how they tap into something that only a unique squad can do and explore that otherwise underdeveloped design space.[/spoiler]

Please feel free to let me know what you think. You are more than welcome to not hold anything back in the process.
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  #15  
Old February 25th, 2014, 01:34 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

I like the new Viceron. The cone was cool but sometimes simpler is better. I think for both powers you can say "this card" instead, also "cannot" instead of "can not" for sanguine sword.

Would you consider making him Relentless? I can see him leading a legion of Death Knights -- at a safe distance!

I still think the Knights of Elguard should be Undead. Maybe take the Cleric out and make him a Human Hero who bonds with them? That way you'll still get in 4 attacks. Just a thought.
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  #16  
Old February 25th, 2014, 01:49 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

I have considered making him relentless, and it would certainly fit. As I mentioned in his post, I tested him with all sorts of bonding and he plays significantly better with it. Relentless fits him fine theme-wise and I see no issue for him not to get along with Deathknights, I just feel that that bonding pool is already plenty deep and filled with others trying to make more options for them to bond with. I don't want to market this guy as a Death Knight commander but I suppose if my dream of a knight bonding squad ever becomes a reality, he'd still be able to bond with them as well. I'll mull that over.

I agree about wording. I think I name drop him a bit too much on his card, especially since his name is pretty long. I'll miss the cone, but it was a strong enough point of contention that I had to let it drop. I'll leave the original in my list for any who want to have some fun playing more unofficially with some big cone blasts.

I had the people on the Pre SoV workshop look over the Knights of Elguard and they are going to undergo some major changes, including dropping the Cleric of Nerull and making them undead. I have a bit of tinkering around to do with them before I put the next version up.
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  #17  
Old February 27th, 2014, 01:53 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

I recently went through miniatures that I own and found that I had a number of ones that are more or less reasonably available. One such figure I found was the Aspect of Hextor from War Drums of the D&D minis.



Seeing this figure, I can immediately start piecing something together. While he doesn't have his extra eye and arms sets him apart from Gurei-Oni, he can easily be taken for a Japanese Oni and makes me want to label him as a Feylundian Ogre. He stands on height with Gurei-Oni and puts him to Large 7. I'd also lean to making him follow Einar. He could easily be a guard as well, and I wouldn't blink if he was tormenting or terrifying or a large number of other possible personalities.

Since Gurei-Oni only has 4 life, I wouldn't be inclined to take his much higher than the otherwise more heavy set ogre. He definitely has some armor on him, but I think raising him to 5 defense may even be a bit of a stretch. He lacks the cyclopean eye that apparently has become the standard for some form of ranged counterstrike, so he may very well require some form of life or defense boost to last long enough to range since Evil Eye Defense acts as a deterrent if nothing else. I see little reason for him to be any faster than Gurei-Oni (if only that he is seemingly more fit).

That brings me to his attack, and the main point of this post, what do you do with the six-armed man? Multi-headed and limbed figures in Heroscape have been handled in a variety of different ways. Dual Weilding is typically a fast road to earn Double Attack, with examples such as the Einar Imperium and Guilty Mcreech, though not exclusively. Figures such as Syvarris and Agent Skahan earn the power with only one weapon while figures like Cyprien Esenwein and some of the unique samurai lack it despite clearly having two weapons. Meanwhile Moriko and Q9 both have two weapons but instead get a dice pool ability. When it comes to biting heads, it seems that cements you into multiple attacks, be you the Fen Hydra or C3V's Racheim.

So how about 6 weapons? Clearly, it is going to feel like some sort of theme break of if this figure lacks some sort of multi-attack. He could be given a Whirlwind Assault type ability, but that would seem weird when he couldn't multi-attack the figure in front of him. Giving him multiple attacks any fewer than 6 would be strange, so you could simply give him Sextuple Attack, which may work but would also force him to have a low attack to compensate (I'm thinking 2). He would then couple particularly well with any attack boosts, which isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world. That, or you could give him a higher normal attack (say 6), and some special attack to cover his theme (say a blade storm pool of 12 dice that he can't exceed two on, or simply a special attack of 2 that he can then do 5 additional times).

6 attacks is quite a bit of rolling to do in one turn, but we've already seen comparable numbers to that with units like the Imperium or even exceeding that with Kato backed Ashigaru. The fact that he only makes melee attacks may suggest that he could even do attacks higher than 2, but I fear him being able to throw 18 attacking dice in a round proves too much.

If his multi-attacking power remains concise, such as Sextuple Attack or a special attack that allows him to attack 5 additional times, it leaves his card with plenty of room to spare for an additional power, most likely one to aid his survivability. He could have an intimidating aura that acts as a 1 die reduction to adjacent normal attacks of small or medium figures against him, or he could have something more familiar like a One Shield Defense type power. If we have a lot of space, we could even try something creative and more wordy like him being to use all those weapons to deflect attack. Imagine, once per turn or even once per round, he may instead use his normal attack instead of rolling defense against a (adjacent?) normal attack, treating only skulls rolled as shields for the purposes of blocking. We could even tie a counterstrike into this limited power, where excess skulls counts as unblockable damage dealt and connect him further to Gurei. That or just give him straight counterstrike.

Any way we slice it, this may very well be a monster in melee with so many attacks available to him. As opposed to my other units so far, this is much more unpolished brainstorming than something a little more refined and playtested. Of what I have listed so far, this is what I am currently leaning towards:

NAME = ROKU-ONI (Roku apparently means 6 in Japanese)
GENERAL = EINAR
PLANET = FEYLUND
SPECIES = OGRE
CLASS= GUARD
PERSONALITY = TORMENTING
SIZE/HEIGHT = LARGE 7 (Double based)

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 6
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 120?

TORRENT OF STEEL SPECIAL ATTACK

Range 1. Attack 2.
When Roku-Oni attacks with Torrent of Steel Special Attack, he may attack 5 additional times.

COUNTERSTRIKE
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Last edited by Ixe; July 7th, 2014 at 11:25 AM.
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  #18  
Old February 27th, 2014, 02:35 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

I really can't see this guy as anything other than Utgar, honestly... the black-and-red color scheme, the scary weapons, the skull motif. I'd push for Utgar without a second though.

In addition, while "six attacks of 2" has its appeals, I feel like a dice pool attack would be most interesting with him... considering all of his arms have different weapons, it makes sense to me that each would have a different die value. You could do it pretty simply by riffing on Moriko:

TORRENT OF STEEL SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 1, 2 or 3
Roku-Oni starts each turn with 12 attack dice. Choose any adjacent figure and attack by rolling 1, 2 or 3 attack dice. Roku-Oni may keep making special attacks with 1, 2 or 3 attack dice until he has rolled all 12 attack dice. Roku-Oni may target the same or different figures with each attack and cannot attack more than 6 times in a single turn.

...or maybe add a twist to it, forcing him to parse out his dice in a way that gives six attacks, or pre-defines how many dice are in each attack. Maybe two attacks of 3, two of 2, and two of 1? Maybe something along these lines:

TORRENT OF STEEL SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 1, 2 or 3
Roku-Oni starts each turn with two attacks of 1 attack die, two attacks of 2 attack dice, and two attacks of 3 attack dice. Choose any adjacent figure and attack by rolling 1, 2 or 3 attack dice. Roku-Oni may keep making special attacks with 1, 2 or 3 attack dice until he has rolled all six attacks. Roku-Oni may target the same or different figures with each attack.

I think that would make for a lot of interesting choices and force you to think really strategically, as well as help keep him focused. This guy has six arms and six gnarly weapons, so he should have a gnarly special attack to reflect that.

Counter Strike is a great choice for him, though. Thematically it's a good tie to him being Japanese-ish and a foil to Gurei-Oni, and mechanically it helps make him an absolute monster in melee but a lot less scary from range.
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  #19  
Old February 27th, 2014, 02:49 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

I can definitely get behind your second special attack. I was trying to keep it simpler where I was leaning, but if I keep short and sweet with couterstrike I'll have plenty of room for that special attack. I like that it reflects his different weapons in a straight-forward enough way.

Utgar is definitely an option for him with that skull motif and the red. I wouldn't be against it, I just feel that Utgar already gets so many units. Still, that is probably a better fit than Einar. I need to start making some non-Utgar units, apparently.
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  #20  
Old February 27th, 2014, 02:51 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

For this guy, I would actually be interested to see a dice pool attack (like Johnny suggested) with his normal attack. I think it would give him his own distinct flavor of an existing ability. I'm not sure how the language/synergies would work out, but it would be interesting.
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  #21  
Old February 27th, 2014, 03:00 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

Here are my adjusted leanings for Roku-Oni



NAME = ROKU-ONI (Roku apparently means 6 in Japanese)
GENERAL = UTGAR (I guess not Einar)
PLANET = FEYLUND
SPECIES = OGRE
CLASS= GUARD
PERSONALITY = TERRIFYING
SIZE/HEIGHT = LARGE 7 (Double based)

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 6
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 120?

TORRENT OF STEEL SPECIAL ATTACK

Range 1. Attack 1, 2 or 3
Roku-Oni starts each turn with two attacks of 1 attack die, two attacks of 2 attack dice, and two attacks of 3 attack dice. Choose any adjacent figure and attack by rolling 1, 2 or 3 attack dice. Roku-Oni may keep making special attacks with 1, 2 or 3 attack dice until he has rolled all six attacks. Roku-Oni may target the same or different figures with each attack.

COUNTERSTRIKE
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.



Evar-Scarcarver, while technically doable, I like the idea that his normal attack is him less efficiently coordinating his weapons to a single assault. Boosting his attack or even gaining high ground would also be a huge boost for him and I overall feel that the added complication of hacking that power together wouldn't quite be worth the trade off of what is gained. It would definitely be something new, however.

Last edited by Ixe; July 7th, 2014 at 11:25 AM. Reason: Stray quote
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  #22  
Old February 27th, 2014, 06:00 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

It's nice to see a new face around here doing quality work. I've already commented on most of your customs elsewhere, so I'll just comment on Roku-Oni. The most recent version anyway.

It would be hard to convince me that this guy is the same species as Gurei-Oni; too many arms and too many eyes. I do like the Japanese touch however, and I like the name. The latest version of Torrent of Steel is interesting, and it gets around the problem I normally see with splittable attacks (that it's rarely ever worth attacking with less than the maximum number of dice). Six attacks is a ton, but not so much for a melee figure. Though, sadly, it makes him a bit better against heroes as he'll usually get more attacks against them. I don't really see a need for a 2nd power here either; I think it would be more elegant with a single power. After all, he's already pretty frightening to melee opponents, why does he need to be more so?
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  #23  
Old February 27th, 2014, 06:11 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

Nice design! I agree with Scytale that Counter Strike is unnecessary; this guy is already potent in melee. I think the Ogre species is fine. Ogres are big ugly creatures and Icaria has shown us how diverse the dragon species is, so it's not a stretch that Ogres are the same way.

Utgar definitely. Valkrill would work too, but this guy looks way too evil to be in Einar. Torrent of Steel is a pretty cool power; I bet battlefield decisions would be interesting.
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  #24  
Old February 27th, 2014, 06:36 PM
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Re: Ixe's Custom Units

Thanks for commenting, all. I have to disagree with Scytale and stick to my guns about him being a Feylundian Ogre. Japanese Oni can be a pretty diverse bunch that can cover a wide range of physical morphologies. With only one data point so far on ogres from Feylund, I see no reason why we should believe they are all cyclopean like Gurei-Oni and not able to be something much more diverse.

I suppose he's stuck with Utgar or possibly Valkrill to give the new guy some love. It bothers me a little bit how much color palette sways unit placement. It's good for game aesthetics and all but sometimes feels rather dubious from a theme perspective. Are the Valkyrie generals passing up on summoning different units because they don't like how they dress, or are they getting their army tailor to slap a new paint job on everyone that comes through?

I'm pretty comfortable with how Torrent of Steel looks right now and how it provides a preset diversity of attack dice reflecting his different weapons. I don't actually think it will provide that much of a decision, however. When it melee, I'm just going to keep throwing attack dice on who I want to kill and go in order of targets from there. Then again, I suppose I can see me throwing my stray 1's at squads instead if it doesn't have a chance of bringing down a hero anymore.

I included counterstrike to try to get more of a theme connection to Gurei-Oni and to give this otherwise fragile hero a defensive, or defensive-like power. With only 4 life and 4 defense, he has the survivability of Agent Carr, perhaps a little better with a few extra immunities from his size. He is already a fiend in melee so it may prove unnecessary, but Counterstrike can act as a natural psychological deterrent from units attacking him and keep him around a bit longer. More seasoned opponents may be undeterred since they will have to do it eventually anyway, but then it gives him a chance of throwing down some wounds before he checks out. I can see the elegance of reducing his powers and I'm not sold that Counterstrike is the best possible option, but I think that it is accomplishing more than it is hurting in theme and function. Another solution would be to increase his life or defense slightly, but that sets him further away from Gurei-Oni when I'm already trying to connect the two. He is no further than the brainstorming process right now so I am more than open to hearing alternate ideas that can address my concerns.
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