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  #5005  
Old July 27th, 2022, 08:33 PM
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Leaf_It Leaf_It is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Knox View Post
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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Fair...but the point is, mechanically you're accomplishing basically the same exact thing. In fact, by doing "Before Moving" it allows you a little more flexibility for if he fails the Lasso...cause as written, if I wanna use Lasso then I'm stuck where I'm at whether I fail or not. So Lasso becomes very limiting. but it's a small thing and more personal preference tbh.
Sir Heroscape has it right. Current version is after moving, before attacking, but you can't move. Which in 98% of cases is going to be the same as "before moving" (but you can move). This greatly simplifies the card and allows me to move if I fail my lasso. And it's so much cleaner

Also, btw in the text of lasso rn you vacillate between Lasso 11 and Lasso 9. I believe you want it to be 11
I wanted to try and make the ability feel a little more unique in comparison to Chain Grab, but I honestly don't care that much, and Sir H's suggested version is still a little different, so sure, whatever, I'll go with that version.

I had noticed the 9 from an older version yesterday, but completely forgot to fix it. Thanks for reminding me.
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  #5006  
Old July 28th, 2022, 01:12 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Okay so this is where I'm sitting now.

Quote:
NAME = JIM WHITECLOUD
GENERAL = AQUILLA
PLANET = EARTH
SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = LAWMAN
PERSONALITY = FEARLESS
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

5 LIFE
5 MOVE
7 RANGE
2 ATTACK
2 DEFENSE
70 POINTS

TRIBAL HERITAGE
Jim has the class of Tribesman in addition to what is listed on this card.

TOMAHAWK 2
When Jim Whitecloud attacks an adjacent figure, He receives 2 additional attack die.

LASSO 11
Before attacking, if Jim Whitecloud did not move this this turn, you may choose a small or medium figure within 3 clear sight spaces of Jim whose base is no more than 2 levels above Jim's height or 5 levels below Jim's base, and roll the D20. If you roll an 11 or higher, place that figure on any empty same-level space adjacent to Jim. If the chosen figure is engaged when it is moved by Lasso 9, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
None of this really affects my playtesting. It does make Lawman + Mohican armies more viable, so I'll test that a bit before submitting, but it's not a huge change.

Hey @superfrog @vegietarian18 @wriggz @BiggaBullfrog @Astroking112 @Dysole @Vydar_XLIII

Do any of you have any objections to multi classing in this case? @Scytale and @quozl have both shown that they have no rules issues with it. I mainly want to use both from the start, because Kolbjorn is already about to ruin Tribesman with something that's not Native American. While nothing else currently uses Fearsome, nothing about being "Fearsome" is exclusively Native American either. The last option, naming the cards that are Native American, and making Jim a Tribesman when they are in your army, is a nonstarter, because it limits any future Native American designs. If it's really an option, I'd prefer to use both Classes through the version of Tribal Heritage that I've quoted above.
This multiclassing concept is interesting. We have class changing powers from the likes of the Werewolf Lord and the under review Feral Swog, but never a unit that has 2 same left-side stats simultaneously. Scy and quozl say its not a rules problem which is great, and I like all the doors that this opens for future designs.

The current version of Tribal Heritage is actually taking 2 steps into uncharted territory. The first is granting a unit 2 simultaneous left-side stats of the same category. And the second is doing it unconditionally. Personally, I think the line ought to be drawn between the two. In the abstract, I much prefer a power that reads “If X condition is met, then figure gains an additional left-side stat.” than a power that reads “Figure has an additional left-side stat”. There’s something about the latter that is inelegant to me. It’s a whole power to make up for not having room or precedent for 2 entries in the left stat box. Once it becomes conditional on gamestate or army construction, it requires at least some decision-making to utilize, and then seems like a worthy power.

Moving on to the specifics of Jim and how to create a condition for him to get his second class. I’m in agreement that keying the power off of Fearsome Human [who follows Aquilla] to gain the Tribesman class works functionally but not thematically. And I think keying off of having another Tribesman would be limiting to any army that intends to use Lawmen and Natives. I’d suggest putting Tribesman in the left box and having the power make him a Lawman. I prefer Lawman to be the class that turns on and off rather than Tribesman. He can stop being a deputy with his own people, but he can't stop being a Native American while on the job. Something like…

Quote:
LAW OF THE LAND or DEPUTY ON DUTY
While there is at least one Lawman or Outlaw figure on the battlefield, Jim Whitecloud has the class of Lawman in addition to what is listed on this Army Card.
I also think the bump to 6 move is warranted in this case, FWIW.

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Last edited by Vydar_XLIII; July 28th, 2022 at 02:09 PM. Reason: grammar
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  #5007  
Old July 28th, 2022, 01:17 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

That whole argument and final solution is beautiful, @Vydar_XLIII . Fully agreed!
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  #5008  
Old July 28th, 2022, 02:10 PM
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Leaf_It Leaf_It is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Do any of you have any objections to multi classing in this case? Scytale and quozl have both shown that they have no rules issues with it. I mainly want to use both from the start, because Kolbjorn is already about to ruin Tribesman with something that's not Native American. While nothing else currently uses Fearsome, nothing about being "Fearsome" is exclusively Native American either. The last option, naming the cards that are Native American, and making Jim a Tribesman when they are in your army, is a nonstarter, because it limits any future Native American designs. If it's really an option, I'd prefer to use both Classes through the version of Tribal Heritage that I've quoted above.
This multiclassing concept is interesting. We have class changing powers from the likes of the Werewolf Lord and the under review Feral Swog, but never a unit that has 2 same left-side stats simultaneously. Scy and quozl say its not a rules problem which is great, and I like all the doors that this opens for future designs.

The current version of Tribal Heritage is actually taking 2 steps into uncharted territory. The first being granting a unit 2 simultaneous left-side stats of the same category. And the second being doing it unconditionally. Personally, I think the line ought to be drawn between the two. In the abstract, I much prefer a power that reads “If X condition is met, then figure gains an additional left-side stat.” than a power that reads “Figure has an additional left-side stat”. There’s something about the latter that is inelegant to me. It’s a whole power to make up for not having room or precedent for 2 entries in the left stat box. Once it becomes conditional on gamestate or army construction, it requires at least some decision-making to utilize, and then seems like a worthy power.

Moving on to the specifics of Jim and how to create a condition for him to get his second class. I’m in agreement that keying the power off of Fearsome Human [who follows Aquilla] to gain the Tribesman class works functionally but not thematically. And I think keying off of having another Tribesman would be limiting to any army that intends to use Lawmen and Natives. I’d suggest putting Tribesman in the left box and having the power make him a Lawman. I prefer Lawman to be the class that turns on and off rather than Tribesman. He can stop being a deputy with his own people, but he can't stop being a Native American while on the job. Something like…

Quote:
LAW OF THE LAND or DEPUTY ON DUTY
While there is at least one Lawman or Outlaw figure on the battlefield, Jim Whitecloud has the class of Lawman in addition to what is listed on this Army Card.
I also think the bump to 6 move is warranted in this case, FWIW.
I think I like that more actually. Not sure why it didn't occur to me sooner, that it would be more thematic to always be a Tribesman, but only be a Lawman when other Lawmen, or Outlaws, were present.

As for 6 move, I'm less motivated to make that change, because all of the current Native American designs have exactly 5 move. Brave Arrow does have Tracking, which gives him 7 move, but I'm not sure that's enough to justify breaking the 5 move precedent.
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  #5009  
Old July 28th, 2022, 02:54 PM
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Vydar_XLIII Vydar_XLIII is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Waves View Post
I think giving Jim Whitecloud 6 move instead of 5 is a really good idea. Not only would it make him stand out more from the other Lawmen, as you mentioned, but it also compliments the fact that he typically wants to get up close and personal to the enemy in order to make the most of Tomahawk. The extra move also would help him make better use of Lasso as well (there’ll be situations where the extra move allows you to put yourself in a better spot to threaten the opponent with it the following turn). Very solid unit otherwise.
Yeah, I'm definitely considering 6 move, however all of the other Native American figures have 5 move, so I'm not sure how thematic it really is.
I misread this answer as to why you were considering 6 move. I got it in my head that the choice was between 5 to match the Lawmen or 6 to match the Natives, and I'd rather you match the Natives. Since everything is 5, stick with 5.

My bad.

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  #5010  
Old July 29th, 2022, 02:37 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I wanted to try and make the ability feel a little more unique in comparison to Chain Grab, but I honestly don't care that much, and Sir H's suggested version is still a little different, so sure, whatever, I'll go with that version.
Making a power different just to be different is rarely the right choice.
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  #5011  
Old July 30th, 2022, 02:09 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
LAW OF THE LAND or DEPUTY ON DUTY
While there is at least one Lawman or Outlaw figure on the battlefield, Jim Whitecloud has the class of Lawman in addition to what is listed on this Army Card.
I hate to be a party pooper, but I find this power troubling given that the recent instance of multiclassing we've considered is essentially a feral beast being tamed, and this is being applied to a human context with heavy historical weight. While obviously unintentional (and I doubt that it'd cause discord among us online), a Native American hero joining the John Wayne-esque image of Clayton and gaining synergies when lawmen are present leaves too much room for negative perceptions that I'd rather avoid. Not having Lawman outright overwrite Tribesman does help, but I was already iffy on same-card class swaps for the Feral Swog, and multiple classes at once feels like a bridge too far to me for not enough benefit.

More generally, I think that designs need something more meaningful than having two classes to stand out. Jim can be a mix of tribesmen and lawmen thematically and still present a very strong card; at a glance, the "lawman stats" stand out, the lasso would be great for War Cry, and Tomahawk paints a theme. Focusing on one synergy would be to the benefit of this design in my eyes, regardless of the point that I mentioned above.

I also agree that Lasso should be a rethemed Chain Grab unless the power has more significant gameplay differences. Any changes from Chain Grab's mechanics are an inherent cost, not an advantage, by virtue of taking more memory space to remember.
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  #5012  
Old July 30th, 2022, 12:08 PM
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Leaf_It Leaf_It is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
LAW OF THE LAND or DEPUTY ON DUTY
While there is at least one Lawman or Outlaw figure on the battlefield, Jim Whitecloud has the class of Lawman in addition to what is listed on this Army Card.
I hate to be a party pooper, but I find this power troubling given that the recent instance of multiclassing we've considered is essentially a feral beast being tamed, and this is being applied to a human context with heavy historical weight. While obviously unintentional (and I doubt that it'd cause discord among us online), a Native American hero joining the John Wayne-esque image of Clayton and gaining synergies when lawmen are present leaves too much room for negative perceptions that I'd rather avoid. Not having Lawman outright overwrite Tribesman does help, but I was already iffy on same-card class swaps for the Feral Swog, and multiple classes at once feels like a bridge too far to me for not enough benefit.
The entire theme that I see when I look at this figure, is a Native American who is also a Lawman. The only thing the Feral Swog did was make me aware that a Class change was possible. Parmenio did that long ago in Classic scape, so it's not new, it's just rarely used. Then this thread here made me aware that multi-classing was a possibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
More generally, I think that designs need something more meaningful than having two classes to stand out. Jim can be a mix of tribesmen and lawmen thematically and still present a very strong card; at a glance, the "lawman stats" stand out, the lasso would be great for War Cry, and Tomahawk paints a theme. Focusing on one synergy would be to the benefit of this design in my eyes, regardless of the point that I mentioned above.
To do a thematic "mix of Tribesman and Lawman" still requires that I pick one of those for the synergies. What are they? Either a Native that decided to be a Lawman, and has lost all interest in working with other Native Americans... Or a Native Dressed as a Cowboy for no reason, since they have no synergy with other Cowboy themed figures. Why is a Native American dressing like a White man? I feel like the best way to do this figure justice is to either class swap, or multi-class. Anything else just feels like a waste to me. The original card that I got from Pumpkin_King was just a Lawman, and did not try to class swap, or multi-class. I then asked myself, "why wouldn't he be willing to work with other Tribesmen?" If you were working on this custom, how would you answer that question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I also agree that Lasso should be a rethemed Chain Grab unless the power has more significant gameplay differences. Any changes from Chain Grab's mechanics are an inherent cost, not an advantage, by virtue of taking more memory space to remember.
Yeah, that's fine. I had some thematic reasons to change it, but I'll just adjust the height limits to reflect those, and otherwise copy chain grab.
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  #5013  
Old July 30th, 2022, 09:58 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
... Or a Native Dressed as a Cowboy for no reason, since they have no synergy with other Cowboy themed figures. Why is a Native American dressing like a White man?
I'd be careful here. What s the expectation of how an Indian would dress? Native Americans is as broad a group as European. That said the reason for the power is obvious, Jim is a lawman that will follow Clayton or has an axe to grind against outlaws, but also is respected by those that respect other tribesmen enough to work with them.

Like roman legionairs are well trained enough that they will follow any commanding warloard and dreadguls are wild enough that they will follow giants. Even Marcus is a good enough leader to get ants to shape up.

I don't believe this design is whitewashed and I think the dual class Vydar offers up makes sense.


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  #5014  
Old July 31st, 2022, 01:26 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

So, for clarity, @Astroking112 , you take issue with 1) the abstract “Figure has two left-side stats of the same category, simultaneously.” And 2) this specific use of the above concept given that the last use of it was on the Feral Swog. Is that correct? If not, ignore the parts below that don’t apply.

1) This is a perfectly respectable position to take, and I have no criticism on this. Your line in the sand is at a slightly different place as mine, but that’s fine. A multiplicity of views on anything that pushes the boundaries of how it is acceptable to design units is a good thing to have.

2) I’ve got to push back on this in particular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I hate to be a party pooper, but I find this power troubling given that the recent instance of multiclassing we've considered is essentially a feral beast being tamed, and this is being applied to a human context with heavy historical weight. While obviously unintentional (and I doubt that it'd cause discord among us online), a Native American hero joining the John Wayne-esque image of Clayton and gaining synergies when lawmen are present leaves too much room for negative perceptions that I'd rather avoid. Not having Lawman outright overwrite Tribesman does help, but I was already iffy on same-card class swaps for the Feral Swog, and multiple classes at once feels like a bridge too far to me for not enough benefit.
This problematic link you detail between the Feral Swog and Jim Whitecloud is, in my opinion, non-existent. The Swog’s army card has the words “Feral” and “Beast” on them. Jim’s army card has neither of those words on it. You would never make the argument that the Feral Swog could be mistaken for a Lycanthrope because it has mechanics that build off of the Werewolf Lord. You would never say that the Werewolf Lord commands the Sacred Band because the precedent for his power is Parmenio. Jim’s design borrows rough mechanics from the Swog and no theme whatsoever.

The design that focuses on both is an incredible way to depict the real historical precedent of Native American cowboys. In my view, a design for this miniature that does not bridge both worlds would be a disservice to both.

Although @Leaf_It , maybe WHITEcloud isn’t the best last name. Just to be safe.

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  #5015  
Old July 31st, 2022, 01:47 AM
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Leaf_It Leaf_It is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
Although @Leaf_It , maybe WHITEcloud isn’t the best last name. Just to be safe.
This was Pumpkin_King's design. I just asked if I could work on it with the intention of Submitting it to the SoV. I'll message him, and ask if he feels the name needs to be changed.
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  #5016  
Old July 31st, 2022, 03:09 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
Although @Leaf_It , maybe WHITEcloud isn’t the best last name. Just to be safe.
Good grief. I have a Old West game system on my shelves with this exact name. In the rulebook. Whitecloud, Greycloud, Blackcloud, stop over-thinking things. Keep the "present-ism" out of this kid's game, thankyouverymuch.
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