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Architects of the Realms of Valhalla Discussion and presentation of the maps approved by the ARV.


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  #301  
Old March 18th, 2020, 02:49 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

We have bombarded you with opinions @NecroBlade - one of the perks as a judge is that I can see what others deem as valuable. We don't always agree, which is good thing. Bottom line - submit what you want. Personally, I didn't see the variation in height in the build in my first glance. Thanks for pointing that out. I would think a random glyph is just fine. Good luck.
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  #302  
Old March 18th, 2020, 09:44 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Goat Path II Electric Boogaloo



Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
I agree with a lot of what's said - but I especially wanted to reiterate my biggest concerns with the map. Because of the lay out, I feel like games are going to play out the same way - with most of the conflict taking place at that corner.
I think early engagements will absolutely happen that way, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Two spaces on the road will help spread things out toward the glyph initially as well, and the height both back there and easily accessible from that initial engagement will give further incentive to go elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
I feel like there are few glyphs that would be worth moving so much out of the way for when your enemy is so close (and many of them are not used in tournament games) so I very much agree with the idea of a pre-set strong glyph that would be worth going out of the way for. Granted, the road helps... but I worry it won't be enough to pull conflict to all parts of the map.
Cliche though it may be, Wannok is a good candidate. I'm not convinced that, or another specific glyph, is necessary without playtesting (+8 initiative may even be worthwhile), but it's certainly something I'll look for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
I also don't love the water around the tree - I'd rather see it used as part of the start zones like Sir H recommended.
I looked at the map for a good while and tried to figure out what to do with the excess water in its first form (everything around the tree was actually a late addition, as I realized I had 6 hexes left and a trio of 2-space openings that seemed too perfect at the time). There were no good options, and while I had some holes on level 1 that could use filling (slight stability issues for the hexes on level 2), due to the 24-hexers being used for the start-zones, there was no way to free up single-hex land pieces. As much of a struggle as it was, I had to redesign the whole thing with the 24s in the middle (had to use other "start zone" colors to mark one map while I worked on the other to ensure I lined everything up correctly). I was able to keep everything on level 2 exactly the same and open up the pathing around the tree, which should help keep the battle fully engaged across the middle, from the opening corner to the road and glyph. Oh, and slightly lessened the potential of opening moves by Zelrig/Krav. Additionally, I do like the look of all that dungeon in the middle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
You've taken on a significant challenge working with such little terrain, so every piece has to be used in the best way possible. I think this is a good first draft! Way to take on such a challenge! Hopefully some playtesting will help refine which hexes could be better utilized somewhere else.
This definitely makes me want to try other limited terrain sets. Honestly not looking forward to building with RotV for a while because it's too generous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
I love maps that have a progression to how the battle develops, and thatís exactly what I see here, so Iím really excited for this map!

I actually disagree with my fellow judges ó I think a random glyph is fine for this map. Setting too strong of a glyph will give too much of an edge to an army that is able to quickly claim that far corner. And I think the development of the action, for the most part, is pretty solid. In a standard battle youíll meet at the close low ground, develop onto the high ground in that area to get an edge, and then start flanking and taking the glyph to get more of an edge, especially with any range the armies have.
This is my gut feeling as well. I won't say I'd be happy to be proven wrong with testing, because that would mean a complete overhaul, but I am of course open to improvements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
In my opinion, the main struggle that the map currently has is the start zone layout. I think that if the start zones had more of an easy access along the road, it would promote even more the development into the glyph/height area. It still should be a bit of an effort to capture the same feeling of battle progression, but as it is right now I think it may take a bit too much effort, which may lead into the one-note battles that the other judges are concerned about.
Something else to keep in mind during playtests. Aside from the two starting spaces, there are several other places on each side that allow for just 2 turns of movement from even 5-move figures to reach or pass the high ground road in the back on the opponent's side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
We have bombarded you with opinions @NecroBlade - one of the perks as a judge is that I can see what others deem as valuable. We don't always agree, which is good thing. Bottom line - submit what you want. Personally, I didn't see the variation in height in the build in my first glance. Thanks for pointing that out. I would think a random glyph is just fine. Good luck.
I appreciate every bit of it. As you say, opinions differ, but that's helpful in viewing the map from other perspectives. And hopefully the map is better for it.

While it is a relatively flat map, my intention was to use each element effectively:
  • 14 level 0 spaces
  • 15 level 2 spaces
  • the rest on level 1
  • Plenty of LoS blockers around height
  • Road/glyph directing battle to additional parts of the map
  • All height in the center (save the one middle space) can be attacked from melee by someone in shadow
  • Pathing to major landmarks as identical as possible from each side
  • Start zones, while not perfectly intuitive, that have simple tricks to remember (red: row with two water spaces in a line and back, plus 2-4-6-8 spaces in front on the left; blue: two back rows plus 3 spaces, skip one, three spaces, skip one)
  • Visually/aesthetically appealing both in mix of terrain and overall layout

317-149
C3V Brainstorm
Pepperony - 14/09/13

Last edited by NecroBlade; March 18th, 2020 at 09:59 PM.
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  #303  
Old March 19th, 2020, 02:04 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Alright, I'm trying to hone in on my revision and am hoping for some input from y'all.




Option A


Pros:
Offers a shadow space that can defend against either 2-hex height

Cons:
Aesthetically displeasing? Mottled, dappled...
Makes height there too disadvantageous?

Option B


Pros:
Looks 'rad'/ thematic (around the outcrops)
Helps folks who want to hide from range better
Penalizes those who seek it a bit by backing them into the wall? (maybe a con?)

Cons:
Those attacking from shadow can't challenge both height hexes.

Any thoughts or other things I should be considering?

P.S.

This is only the top few layers of the map, I'm just focusing on these particular shadow tiles.

Thanks for your input!
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  #304  
Old March 19th, 2020, 06:12 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

That image looks really odd...where’s the rest of the map?
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  #305  
Old March 19th, 2020, 12:33 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
That image looks really odd...where’s the rest of the map?
I only displayed the top two layers of the map because I'm focusing on advice specifically about the placement of the 4 shadow tiles towards the middle.
Edit: I promise there's more map haha
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  #306  
Old March 19th, 2020, 12:51 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
That image looks really odd...whereís the rest of the map?
I only displayed the top two layers of the map because I'm focusing on advice specifically about the placement of the 4 shadow tiles towards the middle.
Edit: I promise there's more map haha
Itíll be easier to digest viewing it as a collective whole. Iíd prefer to see the full map myself
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  #307  
Old March 20th, 2020, 01:16 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
That image looks really odd...whereís the rest of the map?
I only displayed the top two layers of the map because I'm focusing on advice specifically about the placement of the 4 shadow tiles towards the middle.
Edit: I promise there's more map haha
Itíll be easier to digest viewing it as a collective whole. Iíd prefer to see the full map myself
Understood, the more context the better. I'll try to get full examples up. Thanks!
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  #308  
Old March 20th, 2020, 04:49 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Okay lets try that again with more info.

Option A



Option B
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  #309  
Old March 20th, 2020, 05:04 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I think both work fine, with a slight preference for A simply because they’ll be able to get in shadow faster.

I like the look overall, but feel like maybe it’s a little too open in the center now. Maybe use a few more battlements as LOS blockers? I think the walls are fine, but sometimes battlements are actually pretty good as LoS blockers...sometimes.

Oh and the other 2 rock outcrops! Find a way to throw them back in
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  #310  
Old March 20th, 2020, 05:27 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I think both work fine, with a slight preference for A simply because theyíll be able to get in shadow faster.

I like the look overall, but feel like maybe itís a little too open in the center now. Maybe use a few more battlements as LOS blockers? I think the walls are fine, but sometimes battlements are actually pretty good as LoS blockers...sometimes.

Oh and the other 2 rock outcrops! Find a way to throw them back in
I was worried I'd opened it up too much. I just became a little too focused on choke points perhaps. I was trying to keep two hexes of space around most obstacles. The other two outcrops are being used as extra shadow right now just outside the SZ on level 0. I had thought of maybe moving them to the bottom left and right of the 3 hexes of raised wall walk? Then of course I'd need to fill their gaps which I could do with water (4 unused as of now), though it would leave only 3 unhindered paths out of the SZs, which I was concerned about. I feel like I've swung to both too open and too choked, so now, hopefully, I can find the happy medium. Thanks for the great advice @Sir Heroscape
I'll keep at it!
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  #311  
Old March 20th, 2020, 05:33 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Yeah I’d use the Outcrops as LoS blockers and to help with the aesthetic. Use the water where the shadow was being used and see how that looks. And 3 paths out of the start zone is plenty.
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  #312  
Old March 20th, 2020, 05:57 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I like the ambitious 1BftU build, @Ulysses ! Option A shadow placement is definitely better since it lets more figures access the shadow on turn 1, not just 6 move figures.

Those are both Treasure Glyphs, yeah? I worry that they won't be worth going for during a competitive game, since the high ground is so much stronger and you don't want to waste a turn putting a hero in a compromising position to get a glyph that might help one of your figures.

My main concern with the map is that its small size and limited pathing will make most games feel the same when you play it, since there isn't a ton of options. I also worry about melee battles where you just kind of fill in on both sides of the center and roll dice until someone wins. Add Raelin and it becomes even more of a dice slog. I think ideally there would be more of an incentive to flank around the sides. This could be helped by popping some shadow over there because it doesn't need to be in the center -- that's already strong enough and just helps range since it's on height. I'd pop some into those two 2-hex divots on either side in the middle. If you can get more hexes to open up the sides that will help as well, so they don't just get clogged.

Also, and I know I'm pushing into major rework territory, I don't love the placement of the 2-hex height on either side of the outcrops. That encourages turtling a ton, and with the narrow passages on either side of the outcrops that means things will get gummed up quickly, letting ranged figures on top just plug away at figures that are stuck and can't move. I'd much rather see height where it would be more easily contested.

Anyway, I know those are some picky thoughts but they stem off of patterns that I've seen and experienced with a lot of other ARV submissions that have made top 10 but then not passed review. I do think you've got a great theme/design going on! If you're able to then take another step and address these concerns I think it will be that much better.
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