Heroscape Video Game

[Lord Dragonix]

Originally Posted by Tornado

I have to disagree on most points here. First off there are no interlocking hexes or dice (at least physical ones) in a computer game. You could have hex movement and not even show the hexes on the board. The attack dice can be switched to numbers or % instead of skulls or not even shown (either you hit or miss). The names of the special attacks can be changed to powers or extra attacks ect. and do not have to be written out. For example Nilfheim would be an Ice Dragon with a Strong Attack, Moderate Defense, and Breath Weapon - Frost. It could all work the same but look different. You would have to delete and modify some powers along the way but you could get it close.
Now OMs is a little bit trickier. This is where you might have to make a sacrifice and come up with an alternate turn system. Bonding can be leadership, certain 'groups' get to use a leader first. Like I said you could make a computer game that played very close to HS and change most everything at least in appearance. As long as the game felt the same it would be a hit. I refer back to Titans of Steel, it is not exactly Battletech (movement is way different) but it is close and that makes it fun. Also going by what you have written Titans should have got sued.
Another thing you could do would be to eliminate a good chunk of figures and add in some new ones. Now I would not try to sell such a game but releasing it as freeware would be pretty awesome and with the above modifications should be well beyond grounds for litigation.

Anyone can make anything on their own, they just can not profit from it if someone has the rights. Just take a little look around this site, a lot of 'scapey stuff and I doubt anyone spent millions. Would be legendary and a great way to make a name as a game designer... peace

You have mentioned Battletech several times as an example of how not to get sued, but did you know that Battletech has been sued multiple times by the makers of Macross. A japanese originated scifi property sued an american miniatures/war game for infringing on their designs. The argument was that Battletech mechs look too close to Macross mechs. I don't remember if anything has come of these suits, but I do know that there have been multiple over a period of time. So, unless you can afford to keep hiring lawyers, you shouldn't even try this.

Also, distribution of a Heroscape videogame, in any form, even free, would constitute infringement on Heroscape. If I sent you a free copy of Star Wars that I had made, that would be illegal. It doesn't matter if you profit or not, free distribution can hurt the originating company's current/future profit.

As for what is scapey on this site, Hasbro/Wizards allowed and allows it because:
1) Like with other products like GIJOEs, customizers constitute a significant portion of the market-base. Thus, they may feel it would be more unprofitable to alienate those buyers than to allow them to continue working.
2) A while back Hasbro gave a vague green light to customizers. I am sure an older member has a link to that post.
3) It can be expensive/time consuming to sue internet peons for a major toys and games manufacturer like Hasbro/Wotc, and I am not just talking about the cost of lawyers. We are taking about testimony from Hasbro staff, presenting documents, loss of time spent actually making new product, etc.

If you think you could get away with making a Heroscape video game because Hasbro/Wotc would ignore it, I think that is a bit naive. If you think you can strip out everything fun about Heroscape and make a videogame which vaguely looks something like something which vaguely looks like a vague version of Heroscape, then who would actually be interested in playing it would be my next question.

I am not trying to turn off your interest in Heroscape, and philosophically I hate copyrights and trademarks. However, a capitalist system doesn't work so well without them. Imagine if DC comics could write Wolverine comics as much as they wanted, and Marvel could simultaneously write Superman comics as much as they wanted, and Archie comics could put both characters in Sonic the Hedgehog, and I could start a new company called DC Marvel Archie Wolverine Superman comics, etc.

[Tornado]

I am old school and aware of the Battletech/Macross saga. Battletech ripped all of its original Mechs from Manga/Anime. Macross/Robotech did nothing at first and then decided to start ripping off newer Battletech Mechs. One sued the other and the whole thing has only recently come to some sort of conclusion. This really has nothing to do with my example which was Titans of Steel (a video game) which is extremely close to the miniature game Battletech. In fact it is closer to the original than any official BT game except perhaps Mechwarrior for the Amiga which is what Titans of Steel is inspired by. I understand without knowing both games means you really have no concept of my example. You are just going to have to take my word on it or try the games out for yourself. They are both a lot of fun.

I agree with most everything in your last post. The issue here is that you do not think someone could make a game that "feels" like HS, release it as freeware and not get sued. I think you can. I respect your opinion.

As far as sending me Star Wars and being illegal, I am not sure if you mean a game or a movie or what. I do know for a fact though that Lucas does allow and supports fan films as long as no one profits. I believe he even hands out awards like an Oscars for Star Wars fan films. There are some real good ones and tons that are not. I am not sure where he stands on fan video games.?. peace

[Lord Dragonix]

I meant directly copying the Star Wars original movie and sending me that copy. Sorry for the confusion. Also, I apologize for not knowing more about your Titans of Steel example.

I think my concern, which I am not sure I have expressed clearly, is the difference between what has been illegal and what has been litigated. If you illegally copy elements of any property and don't get sued, that doesn't mean that it wasn't illegal. A much more extreme example is murdering someone and never going to trial. Does that mean it wasn't illegal to murder that person?

Further, I don't see how you could copy enough elements of Heroscape and keep it feeling like Heroscape and not just any other game. If you copy too many elements too closely, freeware or not, you could be sued. I am just trying to say that anyone who attempts to bring Heroscape to the electronic form should be careful. In a perfect world you could just ask Hasbro/Wizards what elements you can and can't copy, borrow, imitate, etc.

However, if you do happen to go this route, could you add in generic shape changing robots from the planet Roboticus or something like that. And could you divide them into two major factions, one classically good, the other classically evil. Physical Transformers take too long to actually work in a transformation mechanic into Heroscape.

Also, put in Jedi and Sith. Hoping Lucas is as friendly to the idea as you seem inclined to believe.

And, superheroes.

I am actually becoming curious to see if anyone could pull this off without scary legal ramifications. Still not actually recommending anyone try this though.

And, a final thought: If someone makes such a videogame, and it is as good and successful as we might hope, doesn't that further reduce the chances that Heroscape production might one day resume? Wouldn't it be like trying to make a bulletin board compete with Facebook?

[Tornado]

One last time we have different views on if this could be done. If you played BT and ToS you would have a better comprehension of what exactly I am trying to say. You seem to be hung up on exact copies of established properties. The idea is to have something that has the same "feel" and not a verbatim copy. I in no way support a direct HS rip-off but I do think a clever programmer could deliver an electronic version that fills a void. You just need a little imagination.
Would a Heroscape video game hurt the chances of HS coming back? I would say almost for sure. This is why WotC should strike while the iron is hot or sell the rights to someone else. It could actually produce enough income to bring back HS but that is just a pipe dream. However, I think the freeware version would have zero impact on HS and WotC and would be another reason not to sue. Of course if it was done right there would be no grounds in the first place. Anyway you will not change your opinion so none of this matters. Check out BT and ToS and maybe you will rethink your position until then happy scape, great debate...

[Lord Dragonix]

I wasn't trying to say you can't make something feel like scape. I am just skeptical about the chances of success. If you could successfully make a video game version of Heroscape that wasn't really Heroscape I would probably support that. Though, I don't really play games on the computer.

I think the original interest of the thread was to actually copy Heroscape, and we should be clear that can't be done.

If you are truly thinking of trying to make a Heroscape-like game, then let me know. I wouldn't mind taking a look at it. Are you actually thinking about it, or is this still just a thought experiment?

I think the worst part of designing such a game would be preemptively removing elements which Hasbro/Wotc might go after you for. If there are other board games that made the transition to "unofficial" video games, looking at how their developments trended would be worthwhile.

I agree that if successfully done well, it wouldn't need to be freeware to win your legal case, and the only reason to offer it as freeware would be out of fear that they might sue otherwise. It might also be unwise to use the Heroscape fan site as an origination point for a discussion on how we might make such a game. It could be used to show an intent to infringe on Hasbro/Wotc rights.

In the end, I think there are three questions to ask.
1) Can we design any game we want given the necessary creative skills? Ans. Absolutely
2) Can corporate entities sue you for infringement? Ans. Why not? They can hire lawyers, can't they?
3) Could a well designed game fulfill the Heroscape urge and not be shut down by Hasbro or Wotc? Ans. Yes, but the difficulty (not impossibility) in doing so should be worth considering.

Just for my own knowledge base:
Do you know if there is an explicit reason why Battletech did not sue? Did they just happen to develop a game which was similar enough to capture the Battletech spirit but avoided even vague infringement? If there is another reason it could be useful for helping to set a precedent in the event of actual legal action. Sorry, but I don't like the Battletech game enough to try a digital version for myself.

Also, I have heard that recent attempts to make a new Battletech video game has brought on some cease and desist orders from Macross which caused the development to grind to a halt. So, perhaps that battle is not yet won. Has anyone else heard differently?

[Tornado]

The last time I looked into the BT/Macross saga they had come to some sort of resolution. Battletech was able for the first time since the original release to use and feature Mechs that were based on Macross Mechs. There were still some issues to iron out. It sounds like this new video game threw some grease on the fire. The battle still rages, I appreciate the update. I need to do some research.

Why BT never went after ToS, I am not sure. I know it started really small, I think as freeware, and then later released a for sale version that was updated called Warring Suns. I do know that BT went from FASA to Wiz Kids to ???(latest company that owns the rights) so maybe ToS was able to slip through the cracks while rights were being transferred.

I have no ability to program a video game so I will not be involved in such a development unless a programmer wants to use me for consultation. Of course there are many better choices for such a job. I will support this cause as best I can.

"Imagine all the people, sharing all the world"...

[PikminToo]

Hmmm maybe