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  #373  
Old October 8th, 2022, 01:52 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

In general, I'd rather not replace figures, especially niche official ones with their fans. It's a tough spot to be in when the mark missed, but I think that we need to consider those cases still.

Regardless of the NotNW, though, I think that the Velnesh are a fair value in competitive at 90 points (they're very good against melee, but can be a bit inconsistent against range without cover), but they're best in scenarios anyway where the teleport can really be felt. They're much faster and slippier than Tarns or Brute Gruts from my experiences, and get a decent amount of value in that 4D with Blink, even when they lose a member early and go down to 2 figures.

They also scale much better on fun maps with lots of elevation changes, castles, or jungle for the extra defense than most squads do, so I think that erring a bit higher on their price than usual in the competitive format is warranted.
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  #374  
Old October 8th, 2022, 01:56 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Delta points imo are a much more viable point of comparison for the true value of a unit. so if they compare to NotNW and NotNW are going to be 70, I'd like to see the Velnesh at 75-80 personally. I am with caps in thinking they seem to fit better at 60, but I'll trust the community consensus that that's too low and settle with pushing for a middle ground.
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  #375  
Old October 8th, 2022, 02:22 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

To be clear, I do not think we should price units around the Delta project (or exclusively around tournament formats). It's a great community project, but we have a much broader range of factors to consider, and not all players follow Delta. Those who do will probably adjust our points for their means anyway.

We need to consider the printed price points of units for all types of play, and if there's interest in AotV getting the Delta+ treatment like C3V, then they'll adjust the points accordingly for tournament-exclusive players. In SoV/C3V, I've never taken Delta into account, and I think that it would be a mistake to do so for a Master Set that wants to be new player friendly and open the door to those projects.
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  #376  
Old October 8th, 2022, 02:26 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

All I meant Astro is that Delta gives us a baseline for how good a unit actually is. We obviously need to consider the printed price, but when comparing whether Velnesh are worth 90, we can't simply say "Well Ninjas are 110" bc we all know that ninjas are not worth 110. Delta helps us see what the Ninjas are actually worth/ how they actually perform, which helps us better understand how the comparable Velnesh alphas will perform.

And I have no issue with overshadowing an existing unit if that unit is already overshadowed/ not considered viable (as NotNW are)
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  #377  
Old October 8th, 2022, 02:49 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

My main point on Delta is that it helps us understand how similar units perform in the same conditions that Delta is geared towards. Those are not our conditions, however. I can see why Ninjas are 110, even though I would not draft them in a tournament and they are often a bit overpriced.

But I digress. I think that the meat of the conversation is getting carried away in the comparison to NotNW, and my tangent on Delta is not helpful in that respect. I still think that 90 points is a competitive price for the Velnesh Alphas.
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  #378  
Old October 8th, 2022, 03:45 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

I am not persuaded. I think 90 is too high for them.

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  #379  
Old October 8th, 2022, 05:13 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

If we ended up with a compromise the 80-85 range is underutilized points-wise across all of scape. But I'm more in favor of 75
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  #380  
Old October 8th, 2022, 06:25 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

I think a decent comparison is the Horned Skull Brutes. However, they are a common squad. A unique squad should be cheaper

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  #381  
Old October 8th, 2022, 07:21 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

The Horned Skull Brutes can't jump on top of a castle.

Another example would be the Shaolin Monks. They lose out on Whirlwind Assault and monk synergies in exchange for +1A and +1D, a defensive power, and being able to use their movement power after moving normally.
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  #382  
Old October 8th, 2022, 08:37 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
The Horned Skull Brutes can't jump on top of a castle.

Another example would be the Shaolin Monks. They lose out on Whirlwind Assault and monk synergies in exchange for +1A and +1D, a defensive power, and being able to use their movement power after moving normally.
Again, Shaolins are common (a buff compared to Velnesh) and overpriced at 80. Delta has corrected them to 65. Every example that's given is more evidence for a slight decrease to Velnesh points
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  #383  
Old October 8th, 2022, 09:02 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

I very much don't want to price the NotNW further out of existence. I do not mind them at 90 as I've seen them do great things and even when they're not "earning points" through kills, their rapid and constant movement gives them a lot of utility in tying things up. 80 feels like an absolute floor for me, tests permitting if we want to push for that.


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  #384  
Old October 8th, 2022, 09:45 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

I'd encourage y'all to reread all the playtest results. On the whole they have been underwhelming at 90 and 100.

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