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  #7645  
Old May 5th, 2022, 02:46 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

That would assert there is an intended or correct way to play a unit.

I think that comparing oxford definitions of some personalities with playstyles of certain units would lead me to easily find some quirks beyond the likes of q10. Some line up, but there are some that dont. Q10 is a great example of the card displaying narrative, not being the entire narrative. Meaning there is a setting, characters, circumstance, and some semblance of a plot.

There is also the idea that it is defensible to consider a dragon that picked up additional, giant weapons to inflict more damage could fit the idea of being ferocious quite easily. At least in the same manner that Nilfheim is "ferocious" while throwing max range special attacks behind a screen of greenscales.

Personality is a detail that can invoke story.

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  #7646  
Old May 5th, 2022, 03:29 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

PSA - personalities - only one judges opinion.

Based on my vote I'm more liberal with personality than most, however when trying to get a majority of people to vote to accept you unit within an established template cognative dissadence is not your friend.

There are lots of personalities I would change given a chance to be more reflective of the game play or unit theme. You only have limited space on a card so you want each part of the card to contribute. One way of doing that is to align the personality with the playstyle you expect OR tell a story like Q10.

Remember SoV is a restrictive space just like designing based on existing IP, except you are following established heroscape guidelines (such as stats of established weapons, unit speeds, wording and rulesets) rather than thematic rules (i.e giving batman super strength or Chewbacca force ablities)

Is SoV feels restrictive, it is because it is. I know it can be frustrating since the guidelines are somewhat nebulous but with hundreds of data points (classic and c3v units) and help from judges/c3v members you should be able to dial in you customer to fit the mold (assuming that is your intention).


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  #7647  
Old May 5th, 2022, 04:51 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Love the idea of a dragon carrying a huge gun and an even bigger axe on his back

Add some pouches and you have a positively Liefeldian creation
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  #7648  
Old May 5th, 2022, 06:22 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
That would assert there is an intended or correct way to play a unit.

I think that comparing oxford definitions of some personalities with playstyles of certain units would lead me to easily find some quirks beyond the likes of q10. Some line up, but there are some that dont. Q10 is a great example of the card displaying narrative, not being the entire narrative. Meaning there is a setting, characters, circumstance, and some semblance of a plot.

There is also the idea that it is defensible to consider a dragon that picked up additional, giant weapons to inflict more damage could fit the idea of being ferocious quite easily. At least in the same manner that Nilfheim is "ferocious" while throwing max range special attacks behind a screen of greenscales.

Personality is a detail that can invoke story.
Your first comment doesn’t follow from Scytale’s remark. Personalities inform playstyles, they do not dictate them.

On the other hand, I would say there IS both an intended way and a correct way to play any given unit. The “correct” way is informed by gamestate and analysis of objectively good play, which is irrelevant to this discussion on design philosophy, so I’ll move on. The intended way isn’t prescribed by a single thing like a personality, rather the whole card is crafted by the designer with an intent in mind, conscious or not. In good designs, that intent shows through in every aspect of the design. It paints the whole picture of who this unit is and what they do.

Major Q10 is an example of a design that, in my mind, wasn’t executed well. What the merciful personality shows me is that the designers had some sort of intent to make him a “Soulborg with a Soul” or something like that. Great. Love it. Very Iron Giant. Where am I seeing that outside the one word? His powers? Nope. His bio? No. The SotM campaign literature? Not really, Drake says he “brings sad tidings of Shiori’s capture,” that’s the best we got. The designers and authors had ample design space to follow through on this merciful thread. One throwaway line in the bio could have justified it and had it tell the story that you say is there. But it isn’t there. This one piece of information doesn’t add to the cohesion or broaden the scope of the design, it detracts from it and makes people go “Huh, that doesn’t make sense,” to the point where it’s a meme in this community.

Now let’s bring it back. SoV doesn’t do official bios or campaigns, so the only design space available is on the Army Card. Nordlung’s ferociousness could be defended as you’ve described. And taking ferocious right from the White Dragon precedent is also a defendable position to take. But just because something is defensible doesn’t mean that it is right or the best way to go about doing the given thing. Now it becomes subjective. What is the best way to go about doing the thing? Is it following from existing precedent? Maybe, there could be good or bad reasons for doing so. Is it breaking from existing precedent? Again, maybe, there could be good or bad reasons for doing so. That’s why there’s more than 1 judge and that’s why we vote. We’re all different people with different subjective opinions on what a good design is and how good it must be to be called good. There could be 9 or more different opinions between the judges and the designer(s). We are trying to curate designs that have the best, most cohesive stories, both on the card and on the battlefield. To do that, everything must work together harmoniously. An errant personality absolutely can be enough to sink a submission.

I would like to hold new designs to a higher level than any unit from 14 years ago.

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  #7649  
Old May 5th, 2022, 06:38 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Great answer, makes sense.

Just thought there was some ok precedent for other dragons that like to fight at range with this personality. Mimring comes to mind.

Thanks for the breakdown.

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  #7650  
Old May 5th, 2022, 06:43 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
Major Q10 is an example of a design that, in my mind, wasn’t executed well. What the merciful personality shows me is that the designers had some sort of intent to make him a “Soulborg with a Soul” or something like that. Great. Love it. Very Iron Giant. Where am I seeing that outside the one word? His powers? Nope. His bio? No. The SotM campaign literature? Not really, Drake says he “brings sad tidings of Shiori’s capture,” that’s the best we got. The designers and authors had ample design space to follow through on this merciful thread. One throwaway line in the bio could have justified it and had it tell the story that you say is there. But it isn’t there.
Is this not enough of a throwaway line for you?

Quote:
Although the hero is a creature of metal and power cells, it has developed a questioning soul under Vydar’s leadership, making it a caring warrior able to support and protect allies during a raging battle.
I've always been on Team Merciful when it comes to the Q10 debate.

All that being said, I love the idea of a huge dragon with a space rifle. Feels very "heroscapey" to me and the design seems fun as well (I especially like the nod to Repulsors with the OM-removing Pulse Rifle, although I'm not sure the X marker mechanic is the best possible implementation for that ability).
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  #7651  
Old May 5th, 2022, 07:23 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Just thought there was some ok precedent for other dragons that like to fight at range with this personality. Mimring comes to mind.
I disagree with you on Mimring, at least partially. While long-range sniping is a good way to use Mimring, only the most disciplined players can resist the potentially devastating many-target Fire Line. He really does come off as Ferocious, leaping in to do deal as much death as possible.
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  #7652  
Old May 5th, 2022, 07:33 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Is this not enough of a throwaway line for you?

Quote:
Although the hero is a creature of metal and power cells, it has developed a questioning soul under Vydar’s leadership, making it a caring warrior able to support and protect allies during a raging battle.
I've always been on Team Merciful when it comes to the Q10 debate.
I'll be honest, I missed that line. That line wins the case for him being that Soulborg with a Soul. But is being caring to your allies the same as being Merciful, presumably to your enemies? No. I'd propose caring, questioning, or conflicted as being a better fit to that story than Merciful.

But that's just my subjective opinion.

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  #7653  
Old May 5th, 2022, 09:20 PM
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Voting Time

to Nordlung

I was soooooooooooooooo close to voting up. I realized my original discomfort was that my first thought was that it looked like a modded figure; seeing the actual figure on a base though assuaged most of that and if Smash Up can have Dinosaurs with guns, there's no reason Scape can't have dragons with guns.

Ultimately, it came down to the fact that Ferocious isn't ideal (I don't hate it but I do think it's a tad unthematic) and I don't love either Special Attack name. Princeling I'm assuming is intended as a step up from White Wyrmling's Fledgling but it sounds off (especially since Princeling refers to dominion and Fledgling refers to age). Omnicron Pulse Rifle uses a slightly different mechanic than the Repulsors to get the same effect which again creates just enough dissonance that I struggle to upvote it. I don't have better name suggestions but it feels like it could be just a hair tighter and this would change to an upvote.

Every other concern I have about playability is all playtesting stuff, but the card as is has just enough things that I'd always feel off if this was the final version.

~Dysole, adding that Patrick Ferguson is the only figure in the game that has merciful implemented correctly. :P
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  #7654  
Old May 5th, 2022, 09:44 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

As someone without a vote I would love to see the following changes to Nordlung

Personality: Either Precise or Cunning (erring toward Precise)
Class: Prince is OK, but Sniper might be ideal (it'd only be the 2nd sniper after Deadeye)
Move: 5 instead of 6

Phase Rifle Special Attack: Just a base attack 4 at 8 Range (although it could easily go down to 7 range). No soulborg effect or Omnicron in the name. If Omnicron was going to continue in the name, I'd make the ability "Nordlung may be considered a Soulborg instead of a Dragon when making this attack" (so that it synergizes with Repulsors)

Frost Shards Special Attack might be a good name for the 2nd power, particularly if prince is removed. Other good options would be Ice Needles Special Attack or Lesser Ice Shards Special Attack (I think Frost Shards is my favorite of these 3).

Points could be dropped to 140 at 5M/7R, or 155 at 5M/8R


Rooting for this unit bigtime @Sherman Davies ! You did a great job and Nordlung belongs in the halls of Valhalla wants the kinks get worked out!
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  #7655  
Old May 12th, 2022, 06:26 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

just on a personal level, was never a fan of species-based powers.
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