The Trial of Kang the Conqueror (Fallen Templar) *On Hold*

[IAmBatman]

Next up on trial is a card from the one and only Fallen Templar. All are welcome and encouraged to bring there input. Please be aware of the discussion guidelines for TNT trials.

Fallen Templar's version of... Kang the Conqueror



Latest Revisions





Judges status on this Card:
IAmBatman
Firemaster
allskulls

APPROVAL DEADLINE: Monday, August 2nd 11:59pm (I decided to give it just a tad more than a week to give the judges all time to see this thread)

Any playtesting should only include this custom and official units or TNT customs. Playtesting with Classicscape is welcome so we can see how the custom works with official squads and heroes.

Ideas for playtestes:
1-Complete the scenarios included in the Marvel rulebook, but substitue Iron Man for Kang the Conqueror.
2-Test him in team play so that reveal order markers ability really comes in handy.

Already completed playtests:

Not knowing much about this guy I've included a link to the Kang Wiki Article and probably the more accurate Marvel site for some background reading. Enjoy!

[Firemaster]

All right, as of this moment, there is one thing I notice. I believe the Anti-Matter Shield's wording would be more official if it said:

Before rolling defense dice against an attack by a figure that is not adjacent...

[rdhight]

This is a great-looking card. I hope you can get it to where it plays as good as it looks. Right now, though, I wouldn't want this card at my table.

MASTER TACTICIAN
1. The problem is that officially, you "reveal your order marker" at the start of that turn. I mean, I understand completely what you're trying to do, but "reveal the order marker" is not the wording that will do it right.

2. This is just my opinion, but I would never allow this power in my game at all, no matter how well it's worded or how fairly it's priced. In most games, the order markers are the only hidden information we have. You can't hide what troops you have, where they are, or what they can do. You generally can't hide your objectives. We need that shred of secrecy. An alternative is to allow Kang's player to watch where other players' markers are placed, then place his own last.

AMDS
Okay, this power bothers me too. When Kang rolls an attack equal to the negated attack, does he copy the special powers involved (ullar rifle, deadly shot, etc.), or is it just the same number of dice? Also, does he get to roll more dice for his counter-attack when the attacker has height advantage, or is it the base defense dice he's copying? To be playable, he needs a clearer explanation of what precisely the counter-attack "equals." If it's the same number of dice, it needs to say that. If he can shoot back with 2x skulls, he needs to say that.

Oh, and you have a "the the" in there as well.

CLOSE COMBAT MASTER
I would just say "When rolling attack or defense dice against an adjacent figure, add 1 die."

I think that gameplay-wise, the best thing about this card is the tension between the vs-range-only power and the vs-adjacent-only power. I would definitely keep that aspect. Good luck!

[GreyOwl]

For cosmetic purposes, I would make the left box more standard in color and the title like the official cards. Also, the white border around the superstrength symbol should be removed so it has a transparent border. Although not standard or official, I kind of like the picture of the comic book cover of his first appearance, though I don't think you'll be able to do that on all customs due to space issues.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Same as rdhight, although aesthetically I do not like the card. Too many different colors is just distracting. I realize many of you like the card, but for TNT purposes I think it should be formatted on a standard Marvel card.

[Grungebob]

I like the colors and look of the card, but the powers are really needing some work. Master tactician is just too much, especially in a multi-player game where all of a sudden everybody (not just Kang) knows where everybody elses orders are? This ability needs a total overhaul. Anti Matter defense shield needs new wording top to bottom, and CC Master needs some tweaking as has been mentioned above.

[Fallen Templar]

Originally Posted by rdhight

This is a great-looking card. I hope you can get it to where it plays as good as it looks. Right now, though, I wouldn't want this card at my table.

MASTER TACTICIAN
1. The problem is that officially, you "reveal your order marker" at the start of that turn. I mean, I understand completely what you're trying to do, but "reveal the order marker" is not the wording that will do it right.

2. This is just my opinion, but I would never allow this power in my game at all, no matter how well it's worded or how fairly it's priced. In most games, the order markers are the only hidden information we have. You can't hide what troops you have, where they are, or what they can do. You generally can't hide your objectives. We need that shred of secrecy. An alternative is to allow Kang's player to watch where other players' markers are placed, then place his own last.

I fixed AMDS, but I'm not sure I understand this correctly. Whats wrong with master tactician. Is that you don't personally don't like or is it that it doesn't work. I think it's fine Thematic and Playwise?

Themewise: Kang was a Manipulative Person, who would manipulate by showing other plans and motives, while hiding from those same people his own

Playwise: It's Balanced and works the way it's worded and portrays the character.......

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

For cosmetic purposes, I would make the left box more standard in color and the title like the official cards. Also, the white border around the superstrength symbol should be removed so it has a transparent border. Although not standard or official, I kind of like the picture of the comic book cover of his first appearance, though I don't think you'll be able to do that on all customs due to space issues.

Fixed the "S" I'm not changing the card scheme unless it's necessary. No need

Originally Posted by hi1hi1hi1hi1

although aesthetically I do not like the card. Too many different colors is just distracting. I realize many of you like the card, but for TNT purposes I think it should be formatted on a standard Marvel card.

I'm a little cranky from being overseas for 10 days so don't take this to personal but thats the biggest load I've heard in a while... This is for the playability of a custom not style of the card. I didn't like the card design for most of the customs in TNT hall so far but I think we should stick to getting the cards to work and not worry about uniformity......

Originally Posted by Grungebob

I like the colors and look of the card, but the powers are really needing some work. Master tactician is just too much, especially in a multi-player game where all of a sudden everybody (not just Kang) knows where everybody elses orders are? This ability needs a total overhaul.

This I tryed to explain above but I may change it to

Originally Posted by power: Manipulative Mastermind

After moving and before attacking roll the 20-sided die, if you roll a 17 or higher choose 1 hero within 4 clear site spaces of Kang and immediately make an attack with the chosen figure. If successful Kang may not attack

With this though I'm stuck between making it just an Attack or a full turn

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Originally Posted by Fallen Templar

I'm a little cranky from being overseas for 10 days so don't take this to personal but thats the biggest load I've heard in a while... This is for the playability of a custom not style of the card. I didn't like the card design for most of the customs in TNT hall so far but I think we should stick to getting the cards to work and not worry about uniformity......

Ok I don't take it as offensive, and you shouldn't take what I said as an attack. I just never like cards that differed from the Standard too much. When Euryon was making cards, while the abilities were very original, I just didn't like the non-standard format. It's the same thing here.

That said, I would never withhold a stamp (I'm not judging this card anyway) solely because I didn't like the look of the card, or I thought it wasn't uniform with the rest of the games. I was just stating my personal opinion.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by Fallen Templar

...I'm not sure I understand this correctly. Whats wrong with master tactician. Is that you don't personally don't like or is it that it doesn't work.

It's that it doesn't work, and that I wouldn't personally like it even if it did.

The manual says a turn has three parts: reveal order marker, move, attack. If I've already revealed all my order markers, how do I take my turn?

Now, I know full well what you mean by that-- when I face Kang, I'm supposed to play with all markers facing him. When I start my turn, I'm to indicate it in another way, such as knocking the marker face down or whatever. But even if you make the working work, I still don't like the effect. It's too absolute. As long as he's alive, he sees all order markers of all other players no matter what, with absolutely no way to counteract it short of killing or negating Kang?

A figure should be fun for the person facing it as well as for the person benefiting from it. Like Kang's combination of shield and close combat. That offers something to the adversary: you can move your figure into engagement to avoid the anti-matter, or you can stand off and lower his defense dice. There's a choice, a workaround. His order marker spying needs that kind of quality too. Maybe scale it back to some form of order marker X denial?

[GreyOwl]

Try not to take all criticisms as personal attacks. Remember, submitting a custom to be peer reviewed is voluntary.

So to clarify why I didn't like the look of the card, it has nothing to do with it being "ugly". I think it looks pleasing, but I still think the cards should match the official ones. One personal reason is that I play a lot with my son, who can't read very well yet, and he gauges a lot of colors, placement, etc. For example, he can read the word "Kang" written in the normal font, but not in the logo you used (as nice as it looks). I understand this concern doesn't affect many people at all, but it does affect us so I mentioned it.

There are also other reasons to keep it standardized. For one thing, if unique designs are allowed then the whole issue of where to draw the line comes up. What is someone wanted to change the colors of the Move, Range, Attack, Defense boxes? Or move them to another spot? Rather than try to write up a whole set of rules as to what is allowed and what isn't, I think it's just easier to stick to the standards, within reason.

As for the Master Tactician ability, I think the main concern was that not only are everyone's order markers revealed to Kang, but to everyone else as well. So if you were playing a three player game, and Kang was with player #1, player #2 and #3's order markers would be revealed. It doesn't seem to make sense thematically that #2 could see #3's order markers, and vice versa, since neither controls Kang.

[GreyOwl]

I see that the concern with Master Tactician wasn't exactly as I thought.

Perhaps Kang could see only the "X" order markers, instead of all of them? That way, he wouldn't know everything but at least he couldn't be bluffed.

Originally Posted by rdhight

It's that it doesn't work, and that I wouldn't personally like it even if it did.

The manual says a turn has three parts: reveal order marker, move, attack. If I've already revealed all my order markers, how do I take my turn?

Now, I know full well what you mean by that-- when I face Kang, I'm supposed to play with all markers facing him. When I start my turn, I'm to indicate it in another way, such as knocking the marker face down or whatever. But even if you make the working work, I still don't like the effect. It's too absolute. As long as he's alive, he sees all order markers of all other players no matter what, with absolutely no way to counteract it short of killing or negating Kang?

A figure should be fun for the person facing it as well as for the person benefiting from it. Like Kang's combination of shield and close combat. That offers something to the adversary: you can move your figure into engagement to avoid the anti-matter, or you can stand off and lower his defense dice. There's a choice, a workaround. His order marker spying needs that kind of quality too. Maybe scale it back to some form of order marker X denial?

[rdhight]

If I'm one of the judges, feel free to submit your superhero on a classic card complete with valkyrie general, or on a card you made up (within reason). But I don't think there's really a consensus/precedent either way yet.