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  #49  
Old January 20th, 2009, 03:55 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onacara View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by STEALTHRULER View Post
I wish I had that many squads of 10th and 4th. Anyway, I have been reading and everyone here brings an excellent point; however, I do have one thing do add in. The 4th are a much better ranged defense squad.

First of all, I'm not saying the 10th have a horrible defense, but with the valiant army def Bonus, they can have a huge advantage when in a castle, or high elevation of any sort as opposed to the redcoats.

When in melee cicumstances (not a melee game) The 10th fair better because of bayonet and melee defense, making them much more offensive. You can simply "attack" with more confidence.

5 points may not seem like a big trade-off, but those 2 squads of 10th you get may cost you from getting Isamu, everyone's favorite filler who has saved the day. You guys know what I mean.

You also have to look at it in a real life prespective as well. The figures are much like the real soldiers. In real life, the british outnumbered the Americans with 40,000 trained soldiers to 10,000, maybe less militiamen. We still won. It goes to show you, what seems what may be better isn't always true. I think the developers had this in mind when creating the figures. Just a thought that burst into my mind.



You do know that we won because we didnt stand in straight lines and fight like the British did right? AND You also do know that you do not have to keep the 10th foot in a straight line in the game, right?

Also...if you are only using Ismau as filler than you aren't using him correctly..and he is not Valliant so you would not get the bonus for using him in a 4th Mass build.
That may be his point you know. The brits were trained soldiers; even though the Americans were out trained and out numbered they used superior tactics to win.

He says that,
Quote:
Originally Posted by STEALTHRULER View Post
It goes to show you, what seems what may be better isn't always true.
In my mind if I had to pick from a large number of guys (that are better trained) and a small number of guys (that have little training) I would pick the large number to win. The Americans obviously prooved this logic to be not so concret.

He never says anything about standing in lines. Plain and simple. His post doesn't say why the American lines were better than the British lines; his post says that sometimes the untrained can still be the better army.

I think your response was uncalled for.

As for an actual comparesin I think the 4th mass are better because their Vallient defense bonus works against range; this makes them more versitile than the 10th (who's bonus only works against melee).

The only reason I would pick the 10th is if my oponent is playing all melee or I had a late game hero I wanted to play that wasn't Vallient.

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  #50  
Old January 20th, 2009, 06:48 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

Yes the other day I played a game with a good team with the 10th reg. It was:

10th reg x2
Sacred Band x3
and either
Valguard and Parmenio
or
parmenio, Isamu, and Marcus

It worked pritty well aginst my friends 4th mass x2 and KoW x2 Gilbert and Alster

I cant spell so please dont flame me about that.

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  #51  
Old January 20th, 2009, 08:04 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I thought we won the war because the French helped us out.
One recent conjecture, Stacy Schiff's, A Great Improvisation: Franklin, France, and the Birth of America points out that the use of French gunpowder by American soldiers may have given them the needed advantage, as it was much more efficient than British or homemade ammunition. Think of the French as Laglor-like, adding range to the 4th Mass.
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  #52  
Old January 20th, 2009, 08:07 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

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  #53  
Old January 20th, 2009, 08:28 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

Why dont one of you just make an army of 4th and 10th and just let them battle it out. Then the last guys standing is the better squad.

Lets say 4 10th squads and 4 4th squads.

I would do it myself, but I dont even have one squad.

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  #54  
Old January 20th, 2009, 08:57 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post

Larger starting zones perhaps?

I think the problem with most 10th+ whatever builds is that the sweet spot for them (and the 4th Mass) is at 4 squads. For the Romans or Deathreavers, it's probably at 3. So you really need more room.

Let's say you had a 31 hex starting zone (one 24-hex + 1 7-hex) for 600 points (purposely chosen).

4x Redcoats 300
3x Romans 450
Marcus 550
Me-Burq-Sa 600 (31 hexes)

What would I do for the 4th Mass?

Probably...

7x Mass 490
Sgt. Drake (RotV) 600 (29 hexes)

I'm not sure which is better, because I've never played either of those armies, but that might be all it takes. Glads/Blasts and Rats/Stingers probably get really scary under those parameters though.

Edit: let's see.

4x Gladiatrons 320
3x Blastatrons 500
Raelin 580
Marcu or Isamu+Otonashi 600 (30/31)

6x Stingers 360
3x Deathreavers 480
Kaemon Awa/Skahen/RaeRaeSotM 600 (31)

Pretty nasty.
Silver Surfer: 320
4th Mass x4: 280

Total: 600pts, 17 hexes.


Last edited by ollie; January 20th, 2009 at 10:53 AM. Reason: 4x4 is not 12.
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  #55  
Old January 20th, 2009, 10:30 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

merci to the french!

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  #56  
Old January 20th, 2009, 10:51 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I thought we won the war because the French helped us out.
I heard it was because the British would have tea and crumpets, but the Americans would have squirrel meat and whiskey. I'd put my money on the Americans too.
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  #57  
Old January 20th, 2009, 01:11 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

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Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Silver Surfer: 320
4th Mass x4: 280

Total: 600pts, 17 hexes.
If we're allowing Marvel, then gimme

350 4th Mass x5
220 Captain America
30 Edlgrim the Viking Champion
600, 22 hexes

... any day. I do love Captain America.

~dok, who is feeling patriotic today, and likes Aldin's sign-off style

P.S. I thought we won the war by not losing. Seriously, we lost all the cities, but won the war by managing to keep an army on the field for eight years, and managing to win a couple battles here and there. That, and help from the French, eventually led the Brits to give up trying.
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  #58  
Old January 20th, 2009, 01:16 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Silver Surfer: 320
4th Mass x4: 280

Total: 600pts, 17 hexes.
If we're allowing Marvel, then gimme

350 4th Mass x5
220 Captain America
30 Edlgrim the Viking Champion
600, 22 hexes

... any day. I do love Captain America.

~dok, who is feeling patriotic today, and likes Aldin's sign-off style

P.S. I thought we won the war by not losing. Seriously, we lost all the cities, but won the war by managing to keep an army on the field for eight years, and managing to win a couple battles here and there. That, and help from the French, eventually led the Brits to give up trying.
I guess it depends who you're facing. With expensive heroes in the mix (which is likely in a Marvel-allowed 600pt 24 hex environment) I think I prefer Surfer. The Captain America build is not far behind.

-Ollie, still trying and pumped up on tea and crumpets.
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  #59  
Old January 20th, 2009, 04:46 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

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Originally Posted by spider_poison View Post
IMO, it's really hard to use Rats with 10th because of starting zone limits. For all practical purposes, I think you need at least 3 squads of Redcoats. Again, for all practical purposes, you'll need at least 2 squads of Rats. Marcus works well with Redcoats, so let's use him too. Raelin's nice, so throw her in there as well. All of a sudden, you have this:

3X Redcoats 225
2X Rats 305
Raelin 385
Marcus 485

All of a sudden, you're at 485 and don't have many attacking figures. It just becomes too diluted. If you get rid of the Rats, you can do something like this:

4X Redcoats 300
Raelin 380
Marcus 480
Romans 530 (22 spaces)

This army certainly isn't bad, but is it really any better than pure Mass in most matchups? The Romans are nice because you can go to glyphs and whatnot while you set up Marcus, but turns doing that take away from the limited time you have to set up ranged troops. Let's drop Marcus and the Romans then.

4X Redcoats 300
Raelin 380

The remaining points can be used for one of the solid heroes that can't be used with 4th Mass, such as Kaemon Awa. But is this really any better than a 4th Mass army? Not really. In my mind, the Redcoats can do lots of cute things, but they don't do anything all that well. And as Jexik said, if you're going to treat the Redcoats as a sort of filler or screen, you're usually better off with Stingers anyway.
I think you went the wrong direction at the outset, here. As soon as you tossed the rats and went up to 4 squads of redcoats, you were destined to come to the conclusion that you were better off with a 4th mass army. The 10th loses in a straight range vs. range shootout against the 4th, and probably against stingers, too. Their melee defense is really only useful against either melee squads or heroes. Against the 4th or stingers, the 10th needs blockers - generally greeks, romans, or rats.

So, going back to your original army:

225 10th x3
80 Deathreavers x2
80 Raelin TKW
100 Marcus Decimus Gallus
485, 22 spaces

Rather than tossing the rats, let's toss Marcus, and add, say:

225 10th x3
80 Deathreavers x2
80 Raelin TKW
120 Kaemon Awa
505, 22 spaces

Now you're not really offense-starved any more, and that's a pretty darn solid army.

EDIT: I now realize I just posted Lonewolf's army you beat in the championship game, only with 12 redcoats in stead of 12 stingers. So, yes, that's a good army. And hey, it's 15 points cheaper this way...

Last edited by dok; January 20th, 2009 at 05:36 PM.
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  #60  
Old January 20th, 2009, 11:43 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

I think what this and every article shows is the brilliance of the balance of the pieces.

Simply put, the 10th to 4th comparisons are misleading, because while they are similar in base stats, molds, and 1 rule, they are actually used in very different armies for different reasons.

You can't just sub one for the other and say that because the swapped-in unit isn't as good that it is worse - it's not a fair comparison.

The 4th are a unit that you build an army around - why else on earth would you choose only valiant units? On the other hand, the 10th are units that you add to support a wide range of other armies.
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