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  #2221  
Old April 19th, 2018, 03:02 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I’m of the opinion that every general needs a filler! But the mechanics on this one seem weird to me.
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  #2222  
Old April 19th, 2018, 03:04 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

How do Splash Damage attacks work with Howl of Chaos? Since those attacks don’t have to *target* Carny to affect him, that may not play nicely with HoC. That seems to be one reason ranged counterstrike abilities specify them being normal attacks.

Marker-based powers don’t seem like they’d be worth it on 10 pointer, so the SoV may not be keen there.

He does pretty balanced though. Cool story about Capt America!

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  #2223  
Old April 19th, 2018, 04:45 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Anticipation of Violence is a lot of pizzazz for not much. As a cheap filler unit you won't be using it until endgame anyway. So it's little more than just a higher Attack value. Marker powers in general are used sparingly in VC and require some real value add to get through; I doubt a marker power would ever be supported for a 10pt filler.

Vengeful Howl of Chaos is too much to do too little. Lots and lots of preconditions and a postcondition take up a lot of card space and will rarely have any gameplay effect. It's too focused on providing theme.
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  #2224  
Old April 19th, 2018, 06:04 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Anticipation of Violence doesn’t really bring many strategy decisions. Basically you’ll just put markers on him no question. There’s never really a reason you wouldn’t, unless you have another X order marker unit ( in which case you would have drafted poorly ). Just give him an attack of 5 and save yourself space for another ability or just have 1 ability alltogether
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  #2225  
Old April 19th, 2018, 06:21 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Anticipation of Violence doesn’t really bring many strategy decisions. Basically you’ll just put markers on him no question. There’s never really a reason you wouldn’t, unless you have another X order marker unit ( in which case you would have drafted poorly ). Just give him an attack of 5 and save yourself space for another ability or just have 1 ability alltogether
To be fair, that's how most figures with X OM powers are, though I do agree with just cutting to the attack of 5 and dropping the ability.

I'm not at Kinseth's level of disinterest in 10 point heroes, and wouldn't mind one for each general, but I'm not interested in adding them just for the sake of adding more 10 pointers for each general. I am also getting at the point where I've seen enough that my gut reaction is "This had better be good." With that said, Carnifex isn't doing it for me right now.

My main concern is the design. Making 10 point glass cannons is decent for balance, but not for interesting designs. Isamu, and to an extent Otonashi (against Wild), already do that. While a figure doesn't need to be objectively better than another to see play, I do want it to offer something unique, and in the 10 point category I feel that space is particularly competitive.

Maybe you can put more focus into Vengeful Howl of Chaos. Right now I agree with what’s been said about it being too much flash and no bang, but having a figure designed around the theme of “If you kill me you’ll hurt too” is a lot more interesting strategically than a glass cannon. You could expand the concept to figures adjacent to him so he’s a little more useful sitting in your start zone. Though of course getting into auras is tricky because you may need to boost the points, but at the same time I’d rather see interesting higher point heroes than bland 10 point glass cannon filler.
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  #2226  
Old April 20th, 2018, 01:41 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I do like Anticipation though. Maybe it can be simplified and used on something else - a sneaky ambush demon who gets +3 on a third order marker or something.
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  #2227  
Old April 20th, 2018, 01:56 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I do like Anticipation though. Maybe it can be simplified and used on something else - a sneaky ambush demon who gets +3 on a third order marker or something.
That's a good idea, and I can definitely get behind the idea of a demon anticipating its turn to fight. Reading your post gave me the idea of something opposite but in a similar vein, where the power could let you reveal OM 1 on him to automatically win initiative. You'd get that first strike, but if it's on a 10 point dude you're going to have to use it well to get a good strike in. Would definitely make your opponent think twice about getting too close to him, though.
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  #2228  
Old April 20th, 2018, 08:38 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Lots of valuable input here. I just want to add that I think that forcing a price of 10 onto this unit is limiting, and hurting, this design far more than it’s helping. Try putting a 50 there instead, abandon the use of the X Marker, and consider the other feedback you’re getting here. You might like where you land.

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  #2229  
Old April 21st, 2018, 05:41 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Lots of valuable input here. I just want to add that I think that forcing a price of 10 onto this unit is limiting, and hurting, this design far more than it’s helping. Try putting a 50 there instead, abandon the use of the X Marker, and consider the other feedback you’re getting here. You might like where you land.
I agree. I am not a fan of 10 point fillers coming through the SoV, personally. I'm not sure how many more we need.

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  #2230  
Old April 21st, 2018, 11:58 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Lots of valuable input here. I just want to add that I think that forcing a price of 10 onto this unit is limiting, and hurting, this design far more than it’s helping. Try putting a 50 there instead, abandon the use of the X Marker, and consider the other feedback you’re getting here. You might like where you land.
I agree. I am not a fan of 10 point fillers coming through the SoV, personally. I'm not sure how many more we need.
While I did intend to communicate this message, I also want to call attention to what I think was my bigger point: this mini, and this theme, deserve something bigger than 10 points. Try taking the mini and the theme to a higher power level, and see if you like what you find.

My 2 cents.

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  #2231  
Old April 23rd, 2018, 12:20 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
I don't see the need of another 10 point filler hero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
I am not a fan of 10 point fillers coming through the SoV, personally. I'm not sure how many more we need.
I would love to know why you feel this way, as I feel the complete opposite - the 10 point slot is stale. 95% of the time, if one has 10 points to work with, one picks Isamu (as we all know, the only other option is Otonashi, and she's really only good for shenanigans). I love having choices. I love when the core of my 500 point army is fleshed out, and I've got 120 points left - do I bring one of the dozen+ heroes that cost 120, or do I bring a couple of 60 point squads, or do I do a combination of those things? Having options that do different things and have different strengths is awesome.
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  #2232  
Old April 23rd, 2018, 12:22 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I’m of the opinion that every general needs a filler! But the mechanics on this one seem weird to me.
I agree we need more fillers! And I'm okay with you finding the mechanics on this guy weird - they sort of are (and the comments here have me realizing why; gotta love the workshop). He does play really well though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
How do Splash Damage attacks work with Howl of Chaos? Since those attacks don’t have to *target* Carny to affect him, that may not play nicely with HoC. That seems to be one reason ranged counterstrike abilities specify them being normal attacks.

Marker-based powers don’t seem like they’d be worth it on 10 pointer, so the SoV may not be keen there.

He does pretty balanced though. Cool story about Capt America!
I've played him how the card reads - if an area attack hits him, the Howl happens!
I didn't realize that X OM powers had a point threshold or requirement (and I currently don't feel that they should). But if one doesn't like a power, I can't argue with that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Anticipation of Violence is a lot of pizzazz for not much. As a cheap filler unit you won't be using it until endgame anyway. So it's little more than just a higher Attack value. Marker powers in general are used sparingly in VC and require some real value add to get through; I doubt a marker power would ever be supported for a 10pt filler.

Vengeful Howl of Chaos is too much to do too little. Lots and lots of preconditions and a postcondition take up a lot of card space and will rarely have any gameplay effect. It's too focused on providing theme.
Is there a reason why X OM powers are used sparingly in the ol' VC (I'm not contending this, I genuinely want to know the reasoning, so that I can possibly better follow established protocols going forward)? To me, they are just another way to get some design variety. In my mind, a 10 pointer with a base attack of 5 may be unbalanced, but commentators here have me thinking that may not be the case.

Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head for his Howl - it's more theme than gameplay, and complicates the design space (though he does play really well)! Thank you for pointing that out. The workshop is awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Anticipation of Violence doesn’t really bring many strategy decisions. Basically you’ll just put markers on him no question. There’s never really a reason you wouldn’t, unless you have another X order marker unit ( in which case you would have drafted poorly ). Just give him an attack of 5 and save yourself space for another ability or just have 1 ability alltogether
As Bigga said below, almost always putting the X OM on a figure that does something with the X OM is usually what those figures do. You're right that it doesn't make for many strategic decisions in-game, but I was thinking more of the strategy pre-game, when designing one's army (especially if more 10 point units existed). That's another vote for cutting the power and giving him a power of 5. Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
I'm not at Kinseth's level of disinterest in 10 point heroes, and wouldn't mind one for each general, but I'm not interested in adding them just for the sake of adding more 10 pointers for each general. I am also getting at the point where I've seen enough that my gut reaction is "This had better be good." With that said, Carnifex isn't doing it for me right now.

My main concern is the design. Making 10 point glass cannons is decent for balance, but not for interesting designs. Isamu, and to an extent Otonashi (against Wild), already do that. While a figure doesn't need to be objectively better than another to see play, I do want it to offer something unique, and in the 10 point category I feel that space is particularly competitive.

Maybe you can put more focus into Vengeful Howl of Chaos. Right now I agree with what’s been said about it being too much flash and no bang, but having a figure designed around the theme of “If you kill me you’ll hurt too” is a lot more interesting strategically than a glass cannon. You could expand the concept to figures adjacent to him so he’s a little more useful sitting in your start zone. Though of course getting into auras is tricky because you may need to boost the points, but at the same time I’d rather see interesting higher point heroes than bland 10 point glass cannon filler.
I agree with you 100% - more 10 pointers, but they need to be really interesting (I'd even say more interesting than all other units, as they would theoretically be being used the most). While I find this fella interesting, I do recognize that others do not. I would argue (for the sake of arguing) that neither Isamu or Otonashi fit the glass cannon archetype though. Isamu is more of a jack of all trades (hits decently, defends decently, moves well), while Otonashi is just Johnny shenanigans. Carnifex would bring something new to the table (a filler that stomps around with 5 attack no matter what (well, if you pumped him)), but if he lacks pizzaz in your eyes, that is valid! Thank you Bigga.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Lots of valuable input here. I just want to add that I think that forcing a price of 10 onto this unit is limiting, and hurting, this design far more than it’s helping. Try putting a 50 there instead, abandon the use of the X Marker, and consider the other feedback you’re getting here. You might like where you land.

I also want to call attention to what I think was my bigger point: this mini, and this theme, deserve something bigger than 10 points. Try taking the mini and the theme to a higher power level, and see if you like what you find.

My 2 cents.
Interesting points, @Dad_Scaper ! Do you often look at a miniature and think to yourself, "what point cost should this be, and what could I see it doing?" I usually work backwards from that - think of a cool power or theme, and then try and find a mini for it, and then flesh it out/go from there.

After considering what others have said, I do see that Carnifex just doesn't have the it factor in his current iteration. And I have to admit, although he does play really well and I would be happy to have him marching around in more than just my in-house games, he never did get me as pumped as the other 10 pointer I have submitted to the SoV (or my brother's, for that matter).

I'll shelve him and his powers for now, maybe tinker with him in the near future, and see what I can come up with. Thank you everyone!
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