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  #6685  
Old November 5th, 2019, 01:44 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanieLoche View Post
Quote:
WAVE OF FEAR
When taking a turn with Seishin Samourai, you may move and attack with all Seishin Samourai that you control.
If I understood well this power, it is oriented with Omegacron-ish powers -- i.e. you don't take a turn with them but only a (normal) move and a (normal) attack -- ?

I wonder if this is not the kind of no-go way due to some corner cases. Other people -- more used to such kind of design choices -- probably more insights than me about this... Maybe I'm wrong, but I have some old memories about "out-of-turn attacks are evil". I let other confirm/infirm these thoughts.

I this is the case, but I guess giving a try to a less error-prone (rulewise) wording could help the design (inspired from Thrall's commun hero special power) :
Quote:
WAVE OF FEAR
After revealing an Order Marker on a Seishin Samourai Army Card, you may take a turn with any or all Seishin Samourai you control.
Just giving my two coins... I don't want to go in any kind of workshopping but the current Wave of Fear power formulation feels dangerous IMO, and from its straightforward intention it looks like it should not be a source of cons arguments.
I was slightly concerned about the rules implications as well, but I'm not an editor and I vastly trust Scytale over my own fears in that regard. If this direction is workable, then it really does add a lot to the card.

I would like to avoid requiring an Order Marker for Wave of Fear so that they work with Kato Katsuro. While it's not very effective and would only ever come into play in 1000 point games, I used to play those all the time as a kid. It'd be a nice touch IMO, though if it's necessary to add the OM restriction then I wouldn't protest down the road.

I hope that the intention of Wave of Fear is at least clear enough that if there are rules problems with it, they can be addressed in Editing (or if requested, I can edit in a change to the submission if needed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
It is worth noting that this design also dramatically impacts future attempts to create competitive common samurai squads.
Setting aside the realism of creating another common Human Samurai squad, I would be very surprised if C3V opted to create an A-tier common Samurai squad that is so much better than the Tagawa Samurai Archers that it breaks the game with this design. I do care about future design space quite a lot, but I don't think that's worth stopping the TSA from being fun to play and tying together the faction here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Like this unit or not, it is hardly "creative," notwithstanding its protestation to the contrary in the nominating post. It essentially creates a melee squad that spawns off of dead humans. Of course, you can have this squad be any size you want, which is nice, and it comes with extra bells and whistles, but it's basically a reskinned Ebon Armor. Designed to bump the Tagawa Samurai Archers, is my guess. But it's a reskinned Ebon Armor. Creative?

Do the bells and whistles mean it plays differently from the EA? Perhaps. But it's basically the same design. But better, because of added flexibility in squad size and auto-movement, which are both major boons.
I must respectfully disagree. I think that there is a lot of creativity in knowing what to reuse (such as the spawn mechanic) and how to do it in different contexts in order to create a wholly different unit that fosters a unique playstyle.

The extra "bells and whistles" from the Ebon Armor involve:
  • A slow move that can't be boosted.
  • Flipped attack and defense, making them much less effective on offense but serving as better guards.
  • An anti-melee defensive power instead of an anti-range one.
  • They don't start on the board, effectively having one less life.
  • They essentially build up slower and struggle to reach high concurrent numbers on the board as a result.
  • The Seishin can immediately move after being spawned, decreasing the need to put OMs on them if played well. This even further gears them towards defense rather than offense.
  • They work best in smaller quantities, whereas the Ebon Armor are a fixed four figures.
  • Conversely, the Seishin can be taken in larger quantities for some fun (albeit impractical) army ideas.
  • Different synergy possibilities. You can't take Ebon Armor with the common TSA, and you can't take Seishin with anything other than the Samurai. There are only six cards of overlap, one of which is Hatamoto Taro, and Kaemon Awa is more effective in different armies entirely.
  • The Seishin don't function as a normal squad as a result. If you're taking 4 of them with the Uniques, the extra 5 points for the Ebon Armor are a no-brainer.

That's everything that comes to mind off the top of my head. I can go into more if you're still unconvinced that there is some merit to this design, but they truthfully play fundamentally differently from the Ebon Armor. You can call everything on the card other than a mechanic in one of the powers bells and whistles, but that doesn't change the fundamental playstyle that each unit supports. If someone is trying to play them the same way because they had 120 points to spare, then they'll soon find that they're using them wrong.

I won't say that there are no similarities between the two designs, of course. Once I had the concept for the Seishin down and knew that I wanted a common undead force, I of course wanted to look at the Ebon Armor's revival mechanic rather than blaze my own trail and create a rules mess. I fully maintain, though, that this design is very creative despite that mechanic, and it stands well apart from the Ebon Armor.

If I'm alone in that view, I would fully expect downvotes in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Is Honor Beyond Death supposed to only work with Seishin Samurai that have not yet been destroyed?

Why would you not take a Seishin Samurai figure for every other Samurai in your army? Wave of Fear wants as many Seishin Samurai as possible.
No, previously destroyed Seishin Samurai can be placed again.

That's the main reason that you don't want to overload your army with these guys. Wave of Fear is tempting for those 4+ activations, but in practice that usually ends up wasting points since you could have reused a smaller number of Seishin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
I would limit it to just Unique Samurai, incase someone creates a common Samurai squad.

What happens if the Samurai is killed by a Zombie? Which figure comes back?

I would also give this Wave of Fear power to be limited to something like Wyrmling Bonding.
The Seishin were designed to work with a common Samurai squad. The Uniques are just a fun additional synergy that has some uses.

When a Samurai is killed by a Zombie, both powers activate immediately so I believe that a roll-off should be used to determine which player's power activates first. I'm not on the rules team, though, so I could be wrong there.

Limiting Wave of Fear to only two activations would make them scale even worse in normal games and almost completely remove the incentive to play several of them in massive games. If Wave of Fear was proving to be problematic in testing, I'd definitely make that change, but so far it's actually been surprisingly fine.
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  #6686  
Old November 5th, 2019, 02:09 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion



Well met!


[I'd +Rep you if I could, but somehow you're the last person I +Rep'd.]

You've explained pretty thoroughly how the Ebon Armor are different from the Seishin Samurai. Also note that it matters that the Ebon Armor must be placed on cards before they replace figures. If you place one on the wrong card, you lose an activation. Not an issue with the Seishin Samurai. I can see how you'd want no more than 2 of them under most circumstances.




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  #6687  
Old November 5th, 2019, 02:37 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I see a big Wave of Fear as a pipe dream. An opponent would be foolish to allow them to build up to a point where that would be possible (though the free movement at spawn time does concern me a bit on that front). I suspect 180pts spent on Seishin would be 90pts wasted.

I disagree with the claim that the Seishin are a copy of the Ebon Armor. Yes, this isn't the first respawning squad, neither were the Ebons. Zombies, Dividers, Ebons, and now these guys all do it differently. Thankfully the Ebons provide a precedent for replacing one of your own dying figures, as we've already made all the necessary rulings to handle it.

I don't see rules problems with Wave of Fear either. Just as the Marro Drones allow for additional figure activations, Wave of Fear allow for multiple Seishin in a single turn. It is a bit strange that a hero essentially becomes a squad, but I can't think of any reason a hero turn is fundamentally different than a squad turn.

I like where this guy ended up after going through the pre-SoV Workshop. I think they look pretty interesting to play with and against.

to review Seishin Samurai
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  #6688  
Old November 5th, 2019, 04:38 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

There is a lot of discussion about the Seishin going on behind the scenes. A few things were pointed out that I was mistaken on.

1. I missed that they are meant to be able to come back repeatedly. I mistakenly thought they were once-and-done. That really changes what they can do, and not in a way I like. It essentially gives all your Samurai an extra life.

2. As another Editor pointed out, while the Ebon Armor are limited to appearing after attacks or LEAs, the Seishin are not. That opens up a world of troublesome corner cases that we purposefully avoided. That alone is enough to change my mind.

I'm changing my vote to to review the Seishin Samurai.
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  #6689  
Old November 5th, 2019, 05:26 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion


Well met!

Objections noted. Disappointing. I’m not seeing the “side cases” or “corner cases” that are insurmountable. All could be well if the price is right, no?





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  #6690  
Old November 5th, 2019, 05:29 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
Objections noted. Disappointing. I’m not seeing the “side cases” or “corner cases” that are insurmountable. All could be well if the price is right, no?
Balance is far from the only factor for a unit. The ruleset of Heroscape cannot twist and bend indefinitely; in fact it's pretty easy to break the game. Look at the Book of the Ebon Armor and read through all of the R&Cs there; that's just what's needed to handle the more limited version of resurrection we used there.
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  #6691  
Old November 5th, 2019, 05:40 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

There's been a lot of discussion behind the scenes on the Seishin Samurai (both from a rules and a design perspective), and although I don't agree with every concern that's been raised, there are some changes that I think are clearly in order.

I would like to withdraw the Seishin Samurai from the process until I can workshop some changes in my customs thread and bring it back. I'd encourage people to continue giving feedback there if they are so inclined, since this is not an appropriate place for workshopping.
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  #6692  
Old November 5th, 2019, 05:47 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The Seishin Samurai have been removed by the process at the submitter's request.
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  #6693  
Old November 7th, 2019, 04:01 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Masha Shingai by @Astroking112



The Humans of Japan have long told stories of Demon Samurai. In the worlds of Dungeons and Dragons men would pledge their loyalty to powerful fiends and in return they would gain demonic power. Einar seems willing to look past the ruthlessness and cruelty of Masha Shingai and consider the demon if it proves its worth.

Balance
Masha is trying to pull a double roll as both a menacer on his own and a cheerleader when joined by unique samurai units. His strong attack and moderate survivability enhanced by a pair of novel defensive powers, encourage a player to feed him Order Makers. This puts him in the range of Gurei-Oni and Torin with their variation on Evil Eye defensive powers. WhileTorin does protect his Utgar colleagues, Masha doubles up on defensive powers both hitting back at attacking range and weakening common attackers. As a cheerleader neither power is overwhelming, with Awakened Terror limited by the revealing order makers, and Fiery Retribution limited to Adjacent Samurai. Cheerleaders are one of the hardest classes of units to balance, and in this regard, I feel Masha was evenly balanced.

As a samurai cheerleader it is important to compare him to his clearest competition for order markers; Tomoe Gozen. At a similar point cost, attack output, and survivability, it becomes a decision which cheerleader you draft, if not both when creating a samurai army. While it is possible to free up order makers when a Samurai falls, and have both Tomoe and Masha active, you don’t want Tomoe sitting in your start zone, requiring early order marker investment. Comparing their cheerleading, Defensive Formation can help the samurai survive ranged attacks while Fiery Retribution only has the potential to remove attackers, after your samurai falls. After playing samurai with Masha, in many match-ups I wished for Tomoe’s ability to maintain attack output of 3 attackers rather then the slightly heaver single attack of Masha, leading me to feel the demon was slightly outclassed. While I could have drafted both, trying to moving 2 heroes and a squad up the board, was very slow and quickly gave up board control, leading the choice to use the additional points to draft a solid clean up option like the Krav or the samurai’s own Kaemon Awa.

I would be remis if I did not at least mention the samurai’s best and worst cheerleading options. While Raelin is good with everything she is a significant boon to the samurai in improving their survivability and increasing the danger of counter strike where as Masha is more situational. On the other hand, outside specific match ups (looking at you minions) Hatamoto is almost always a weaker choice. With so many good and bad options to tag along with the samurai, it can be hard to invest in another order marker sink.

Theme
While Heroscape is filled with species crossing enemy lines like an Aquilla Goblin, Utgar Elf and Einar Ogre, Demons seem to be the domain of evil generals. If I can squint, I can see Einar summoning a lawful evil demon to his side, especially one that helps his signature units, but Heroscape demons seem specifically evil. I also have some cognitive dissidence with Masha being the patron of Earth-bound Samurai, but of course there are likely Samurai elves on Feylund, just as therecould be cowboys on Atrocious, and Masha likes all samurai armor? While Irespect that Awakened Terror affects both friendly and enemy figures, it seemed out of place and a missed opportunity for the Tagawa Samurai Archers as Masha leaves is his own patrons quaking in their sandals when in his presence.

Creativity
Though I have misgivings about an Einar Demon, at first glance both powers to be creative without feeling too meta-gamey. Awakened Terror could have been a simple aura effect, however creating a dependency on a revealed order maker ensures there is a reason to keep Masha with the other Samurai and keeps a potentially devastating power in check. I really like Fiery Retribution as an anti range power and look forward to potentially more units learning this specific spell. The question for playtesting was whether two toned down powers could be effective on a cheerleading beat stick. Everything else on the card seems to logically flow from Demon Samurai unit design, which is the greatest praise I feel I can give.

Playability
While I liked both powers, I did not feel they came to fruition on the board. As a stand-alone hero, Masha is serviceable. When fighting normal range units, he can usually inflict a couple of wounds while closing in on his prey, however due to ‘Retribution’ nature of the power he is normally half dead at that point. Once Masha can tie up a common ranged figure, assuming there are no other members of that unit in range his Awakened Terror can help him survive. Awaken Terror obviously helps more against knights and romans, but a poor initiative rolls, or simple attrition will bring down the Demon quickly. Against unique figures throwing either melee or special attacks Masha has nothing in his toolbox other than a high attack, which can be found at a cheaper price elsewhere.

Of course, Fiery Retribution does mention samurai, so maybe Masha could be put to better use as a cheerleader. Other cheerleaders notwithstanding, I didn’t find a lot of utility in Masha in this role. With 2 heroes and 3 unique and 1 common squad, options are limited in army construction and order marker management becomes challenging. As mentioned above Awakened Terror works against the Archers so it is difficult to set up an effective defensive pod, without sacrificing some early attack output. Moving Masha up with each of the unique squads didn’t feel as effective as just running the squad on its own. The Izumi lack the attack output to warrant Masha’s protection, the Kozuke can be too fast to keep up with, and it can be hard to give up the attack out put of the Tagawa. Once Masha and the remaining Samurai were engaged it was nice to have the improve counter strike, but the cost of attack output and the reliance on initiative rolls left me looking for Tomoe or wishing I had loaded up order makers on the squad and to more effectively claim board control.

While Fiery Retribution could destroy the attacking figure, trading a common squad figure for a unique samurai felt like trading a bishop for a rook. Additionally, if Awakened Terror was active there was additional reason to avoid moving into engagement, leading to unique situations like giving up the 4th Massachusetts’ wait than fire to retreat out of Masha’s aura, which is the opposite direction the samurai want them moving. In fact, the two powers seem to work against each other when fighting ranged commons as they are even more incentivized to retreat, even giving up high and increasing the time before engagement. Since Fiery Retribution doesn’t stop wounds, choosing between attacking Masha or his samurai party is still a matter of simply attacking the greatest threat and accept the danger of additional wounds, which is normally the multi-attacking samurai squad.

Running Masha with the samurai does give them access to his heavy attack, the Kozuke are already throwing lots of dice and against the right match-ups the Tagawa can quickly become just as formattable. In thisregard I did not feel Masha added a lot to the samurai build and would havenormally preferred Tomoe and/or Kaemon.

Summary
In person Masha’s figure is larger and more threating than the rest of the samurai clan. In practice I did not find him to be as threating as his points and power suggest. While Masha helped the samurai with some additional protection and enhanced counter strike, keeping him in tow was a significant in-game cost. This coupled with my feelings against an Einar Demon, lead me to vote no to inducting Masha Shingai into the Soldiers of Valhalla.


I vote to induct Masha Shingai into the Soldiers of Valhalla


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  #6694  
Old November 7th, 2019, 04:36 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Masha Shingai by @Astroking112 has received two Nay votes to induct (superfrog and wriggz) and is removed from the process.
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  #6695  
Old November 7th, 2019, 05:46 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Thanks for the reviews, everyone. Even if we don't all agree, I'm appreciative for the time that each judge has taken to review Masha.
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  #6696  
Old November 7th, 2019, 05:59 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I do want to say that I quite liked the idea of Masha but felt that he never really paid off. I think a boost to the retribution power or a bump back down to 90 points would be a good start towards bumping the design over the line for me.

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