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#97
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design
For the sake of officiality, that's a YEA from me as well.
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#98
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design
If we count caps' thumb before the vote, that's 4/6 yeas. Let's give PK and AYP another day to chime in, then it's on to editing.
Yea @NecroBlade Yea @Pumpkin_King Yea @Astroking112 Yea @All Your Pie Yea @flameslayer93 Yea? @capsocrates Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 Last edited by NecroBlade; September 1st, 2019 at 12:46 PM. |
#99
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design
Yea!
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#100
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design
Whoops, sorry I missed this. I think the mention didn't work.
YEA from me. |
#101
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design
It's not a big deal, but hopefully the pings in the other threads have worked.
We have the majority to send the Honored Soul-Guides to editing now, so it's time for @Scytale to run them through the checklist once he gets a chance. Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#102
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design
Edit: Whoops, duplicate post. Ignore this.
Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#103
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design
Sorry it took a while. Let's see what we've got. I'm making a few minor changes to the text to meet standards.
Going through I realized that the Honored Soul-Guides could be used to kill your own Unique Hero, then bring it back later on a different part of the battlefield. Rarely every useful, but worth noting. Quote:
1. Are we recycling a unit name? No 2. Are we recycling a power name? No, Stealth Flying is an existing power. 3. If we are reusing an existing power, is the wording exactly the same? Yes 4. What happens when the powers are negated (Rod of Negation, Exploit Weakness)? If affected by Rod of Negation, the Honored Soul-Guides could not use Stealth Flying. Unique Heroes that die within 4 spaces of an Honored Soul-Guide could not be placed on the Honored Soul-Guides' card, and Unique Heroes on their army card could not be used. Exploit Weakness has no effect. Do any powers continue to have effects after being negated? No Is this clear from the wording? While not explicitly stated, there would be no way to use Unique Heroes on the Honored Soul-Guides' card, so they are naturally stranded. 5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? DOs are not Unique Heroes, so they could not be captured by Last Will. 6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? Could Last Will be used on a figure you have temporary control of, such as Eternal Hatred or Enslave? It may die during the turn you have temporary control, so can you place it on the Honored Soul-Guides army card and take a turn with it again later? Adding complication to that is mirror matches. Last Will destroys that hero at the end of the turn, so I think it would be destroyed prior to control returning to its original owner, so the original owner could not use Last Will to put it on their own Honored Soul-Guides army card. 7. Do the powers allow turn stacking? No, the turn taken with a captured Hero is "instead of" a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides. 8. Are any of the powers conditional on a future event? No Is that future event inevitable or avoidable? 9. Does it have a d20 power? No If is a small, medium, or large Hero, how does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? If it is Tricky, how does it interact with Queen of Thieves? If it is Undead, how does it interact with Curse of the Mummy? 10. Do the powers create out-of-turn attacks? No 11. Are any powers conditional on the source of damage? No 12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? Unique Heroes placed on the Honored Soul-Guides army card will be stranded there. I assume this is intentional. If so, is that clearly worded? 13. Do any powers that decrease attack or defense dice introduce a new minimum value (other than zero)? N/A 14. Do any powers change a Range value from 3 or less to 4 or greater or vice versa? No 15. Do any powers act unexpectedly in multiplayer games? No 16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? Yes If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)? There are a number of others powers that can place dead figures on other army cards. How is Last Will supposed to interact with them? 17. Does a power trigger off of an Order Marker being revealed on another Army Card? No If so, is the power expected to trigger if all figures associated with that Army Card have been destroyed? 18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Both Last Will and Stealth Flying are clearly optional. 19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? If the Marro Hive is taken by Last Will, and the Honored Soul-Guides give up their turn to bring it back and take a turn, can it use Hive Mind to take more turns beforehand? 20. If the unit is a Soulborg squad who follows Jandar, how do the powers interact with Directed Fire? N/A 21. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Last Will is rather specific as a power, so the name is fine. 22. Does the text fit reasonably well on a card? Use this tool to check: https://www.heroscapers.com/xorlof/x2cc. It's a bit crowded, but workable. Capitalization Checklist: Named Special Power Army Card card wound marker Unique Hero Style Checklist: 1. Species is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads, except Human and Soulborg are always singular. Undead is plural. 2. Class is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads. Psychopomps is singular. 3. For Heroes with a name like {name} the {optional adjective} {noun}, use the full name for the first instance in each power description, and only the first {name} thereafter. N/A 4. Single-space, not single-spaced; double-space, not double-spaced. N/A 5. Always add 's' after an apostrophe for a singular possessive, even if the possessor ends in 's' or 'z'. "figure's" and "Soul-Guide's" are correct. 6. Special attacks should have a newline between the Range/Attack line and the description. N/A Unique Card Checklist: 1. How does it interact with Enslave/Moon Frenzy? N/A 2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? If the Honored Soul-Guides have one or more Unique Heroes on their army card when they are Mind Shackled, can the new owner take turns with those Unique Heroes which belong to the other player? Movement Power Checklist: 1. Does it allow leaving engagement attacks? No 2. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Stealth Flying ignores these powers until the figure lands. Landing can trigger these powers. 3. How does it interact with Slippery? Stealth Flying would not trigger Slippery unless the figure landed next to Elaria. If so, Slippery could take effect. 4. How does it interact with Cyberclaw/Improved Cyberclaw? Cyberclaw would prevent an Honored Soul-Guide from starting to fly. Soul-Guides would not be affected by Cyberclaw while flying. 5. How does it interact with Swirling Vortex? Stealth Flying ignores effects of Swirling Vortex. 6. Is there any way the figure can be forced to end its movement on an illegal space? No 7. Is it a space-by-space move power, or a teleport-like place power? It is a modification to movement. Is it clear in the power which one it is? 8. How does it interact with bonus movement powers, such as Movement Bonding or Jandar's Dispatch? Stealth Flying can be used with bonus movement powers. 9. How does it interact with Shield Push? Stealth Flying can be used with Shield Push if the Hoplitron is friendly. 10. How does it interact with Maneuver? N/A 11. How does it interact with Steadfast? N/A 12. How does it interact with Flying/Stealth Flying? It is Stealth Flying. 13. How does it interact with Levitation? N/A Bonus/Replacement Turn Power (e.g. Bonding) Checklist: 1. Does it create bonding chains/loops? For a power like Hive Mind, can the Marro Hive take a turn with a Marro squad before taking it turn when taking a turn with Last Will? How about other "instead of taking a turn" powers like Kato Katsuro's Command? 2. Should it have "after revealing an Order Marker" language? It is generally safe to leave this language off for squads. 3. Does the power inadvertently allow the same unit to take multiple turns? No 4. Does it allow squad figures to take a turn? No If so, does it divide up a squad so that only some members of the squad can activate? Start of Turn Power Checklist: 1. How does it interact with various forms of bonding? Can the Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will use bonding? 2. How does it interact with powers that allow other units to take turns instead of the unit with the order marker? Can the Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will use an "instead of taking a turn" power? 3. How does it interact with Samurai Life Debt? N/A 4. How does it interact with Healing Word? N/A 5. How does it interact with Eternal Hatred? N/A 6. How does it interact with additional order marker revealing powers, such as Crag of Steel and Frost Rage? N/A 7. How does it interact with Rejected by Death? Rejected by Death would happen at the start of the Unique Hero's turn that is going via Last Will. Could Rejected by Death be used to remove the figure from the Honored Soul-Guides army card? If so, can it be placed back on the card after it dies again? 8. How does it interact with Reanimation? N/A 9. How does it interact with Quantum Reconstitution? N/A 10. How does it interact with Through the Green? N/A 11. How does it interact with First Strike? N/A 12. How does it interact with Split Decision? If Grigor & Rogirg would take a turn due to Last Will, they would have to roll for Split Decision. 13. How does it interact with Chrono-Key? N/A 14. How does it interact with Potion of Healing? N/A 15. How does it interact with Revenant's Tome? N/A End of Turn Power Checklist: 1. How does it interact with Cold Healing/Cold Regenerate/Regenerate? It does not matter if a Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will uses a healing power. 2. How does it interact with Frenzy? If a Unique Hero had Frenzy, it would die to Last Will (end of turn) before rolling for Frenzy (after taking a turn). 3. How does it interact with Hyper Speed? A Unique Hero with Hyper Speed would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Hyper Speed (after taking a turn). 4. How does it interact with Jandar's Dispatch? Sir Gilbert would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Jandar's Dispatch (after taking a turn). 5. How does it interact with Overextend Attack? A Unique Hero with Overextend would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Overextend (after taking a turn). 6. How does it interact with Stab in the Back? A Unique Hero with Stab in the Back would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Stab in the Back (after taking a turn). 7. How does it interact with Summon the Rechets of Bogdan? Iskra would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Summon the Rechets of Bogdan (after taking a turn). 8. How does it interact with War Cry/Guerrilla Tactics? A Unique Hero with these powers would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using them (after taking a turn). 9. How does it interact with Divine Mission/Labors? Heracles would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Labors (after taking a turn). 10. How does it interact with Undead Legion/Flocking? A Unique Hero with these powers would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using them (after taking a turn). 11. How does it interact with Enslave/Command Dispatch/Heavy Support Command Beacon? N/A 12. How does it interact with EMP Response? If the Unique Hero taking a turn with Last Will is a Soulborg, and it gets hit with EMP Response, it's turn ends immediately. There is no "end of turn" phase, so the auto-destruct that Last Will tacks on would not happen. Changing to be "after taking that turn" is needed to fix that, though that will clash with some other effects. 13. How does it interact with Growing Heat? Brimstone would die to Last Will (end of turn) before using Growing Heat (after taking a turn). 14. How does it interact with Furious Wrath? There is really no reason not to use Furious Wrath during a Last Will turn, since the figure will die anyway. 15. How does it interact with Marching Orders? After taking a turn with a Jandar Unique Soldier Hero with Last Will, you may use Marching Orders to move 8th Infantry figures as long as there is another Jandar Unique Soldier in your army. 16. How does it interact with Enraged? N/A 17. How does it interact with Hunting Party? After taking a turn with a Scout or Tribesman Hero with Last Will, you may use Hunting Party to move Teeth of the Makwa. 18. How does it interact with Piercing Scream? N/A Return-to-battlefield Power Checklist: 1. How does it interact with Pounce? N/A 2. How does it interact with Zombies Rise Again/Zombie Rises Again/Bloodborn Rising? Could a Zombie Hulk on the Honored Soul-Guides army card Rise Again? If so, could it be put back on the Honored Soul-Guides army card due to Last Will? 3. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? Placing the Unique Hero on the turn due to Last Will could trigger these powers, and could be killed by them before taking a turn. In which case, the Unique Hero never gets a turn, which implies you would not need to destroy an Honored Soul-Guide at the end of that figure's turn. Is that how it's intended? 4. How does it interact with Slippery? N/A Triggered Power Checklist: Destruction Triggered Powers: 1. How does it interact with normal attacks? A Unique Hero destroyed by a normal attack could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 2. How does it interact with every special attack in the game (listed here)? A Unique Hero destroyed by a special attack could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 3. How does it interact with leaving engagement attacks? A Unique Hero destroyed by a leaving engagement attack could trigger the capture part of Last Will, as long as it was in the order prior to moving. 4. How does it interact with falling damage? A Unique Hero destroyed by falling damage could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 5. How does it interact with lava field damage? A Unique Hero destroyed by lava field damage could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 6. How does it interact with the Glyph of Wannok? A Unique Hero destroyed by the Glyph of Wannok could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 7. How does it interact with Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes/Braced Spear? A Unique Hero destroyed by a these powers could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 8. How does it interact with Marro Plague/Circuitry Overload/Toxic Skin/Searing Intensity? A Unique Hero destroyed by a these powers could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 9. How does it interact with Cleave? N/A 10. How does it interact with Chilling Touch/Commander's Strike/Dragon Swoop/Fledgling Acid Breath/Spiked Gauntlet? A Unique Hero destroyed by these powers could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 11. How does it interact with Poisonous Acid Breath? A Unique Hero destroyed by Poisonous Acid Breath could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 12. How does it interact with Dying Swipe? A Unique Hero destroyed by Dying Swipe could trigger the capture part of Last Will. For a Frost Giant, it would use Dying Swipe before it could be captured by Last Will. 13. How does it interact with Eternal Heartbreak? Sonya destroyed by Eternal Heartbreak could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 14. How does it interact with Healing Touch? A Unique Hero destroyed by Healing Touch could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 15. How does it interact with Maul? A Unique Hero destroyed by Maul could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 16. How does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? Myrrdin destroyed by his own Mystic Sacrifice could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 17. How does it interact with Opportunity Strike? A Unique Hero destroyed by Opportunity Strike could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 18. How does it interact with Overextend Attack? A Unique Hero destroyed by its own Overextend Attack damage could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 19. How does it interact with Self-Destruct? A Unique Hero destroyed by Self-Destruct (even its own) could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 20. How does it interact with Throw? A Unique Hero destroyed by Throw could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 21. How does it interact with Thunder Step? Eltahale destroyed by her own Thunder Step could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 22. How does it interact with Trample Stomp? A Unique Hero destroyed by Trample Stomp could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 23. How does it interact with Purple Heart? Capt. Varan destroyed by Purple Heart could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 24. How does it interact with Expendable Rabble? N/A 25. How does it interact with Bloodlust/Demonblade? If a Tagawa destroys a Unique Hero taking a turn due to Last Will with Counter Strike, it would get a Bloodlust marker. Is this ok? 26. How does it interact with Eternal War? The destruction of a Unique Hero could trigger both Eternal War and the capture part of Last Will. 27. How does it interact with Furious Wrath/Engorge? A Unique Hero destroyed by these powers could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 28. How does it interact with Life Drain/Life Transfer Aura? Calibrax could heal another another figure with Life Transfer Aura during a turn taken due to Last Will. 29. How does it interact with Swarm Sting 18? N/A 30. How does it interact with Devour From Beneath? N/A 31. How does it interact with Remote Detonation? A Unique Hero destroyed by Remote Detonation could trigger the capture part of Last Will. 32. How does it interact with Opportunistic Hero? The destruction of a Unique Hero could trigger both Opportunistic Hero and the capture part of Last Will. 33. How does it interact with Piercing Scream? N/A |
#104
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing
Thanks for running the checklist, Scytale!
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Has there ever been a R&C about scoring when a temporarily-controlled hero dies before? If the points are still counted for the side with permanent control, then that would imply that temporary control ends once the figure is destroyed. Quote:
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For the various Spirits, currently those heroes can be placed on the card from any distance instead of just within 4 spaces, still be temporarily revived with Last Will, and then once they're destroyed they can be placed on a new Unique Army Card. Since they can be placed on the card without Last Will, that also means that the same figure can be revived multiple times. I'm personally not a fan of the interaction with Spirits powers, but I believe that I was alone in that regard. Quote:
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Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#105
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing
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Though I have to ask, why go with such an odd, complex design with lots of potential corner case problems and a long list of R&Cs for what is designed to be a "starter set?" This feels like a 4th expansion addition, not a core set design. Quote:
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#106
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing
Quote:
I would still prefer for Last Will to not work with temporary control, but I'm hesitant to add verbiage making the distinction of permanent control. Notably, Tetsuo Tyrell is designed around a similar temporary control mechanic to Enslave, so this is definitely a case that we need to address, and I'm not very comfortable with leaving this one to a R&C. Quote:
That said, we have several other powers in VC that function by removing figures placed on a card by other powers. Necromancy and Eternal War are both separated from the placement mechanic (personally, this is a big reason why I wanted Last Will to be split into two powers--one placing destroyed heroes on the card, and one reviving them--back when it was discussed). If the spirits are just reminders, though, then technically even if we allow them to be revived, the spirit bonus on the Honored Soul-Guides still persists (and that spirit could even be used a second time when they're destroyed again by Last Will), which is just strange. I think that most players probably wouldn't have this interpretation, so we do have some leeway, but I admittedly don't know what a ruling the other way would fully entail. Quote:
I'm not sure if we ever saw a ruling about how this applies in relation to Sturla or the Revenant's Tome, but I'm under the impression that the Hive couldn't be revived by those means, either, unless it can somehow be placed into its starting location. If this isn't something that has been addressed before, it might be worth clarifying beyond the scope of this set as well. Quote:
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I'd like to work around EMP Response if possible, because I feel like "after taking a turn" could lead to more clashes than this route. Quote:
Would destroying a Honored Soul-Guide and replacing them with the destroyed hero be a viable alternative to destroying the Soul-Guide at the same time as the revived hero? Quote:
Logically, I feel like a figure can't replace something that isn't there, but it has of course never come up in games before. If we need to let the powers interact this way, then I can live with it. I am curious as to what kinds of madness it would entail, though. My impression is that it would act just like placing does, but rely on removing the figure first, so things like Engagement Strike wouldn't be any different than normal placement powers. Quote:
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Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#107
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design
If the Revenant’s Tome version of Last Will is too complex for a MS, I’m open to pushing this back into Design. I think we still have enough room to get this unit right.
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#108
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design
Something else worth considering is that Pod 1 has been considering a negative spirit aura on the Ob Nixilus sculpt. If the other player places him on the Honored Soul-Guides, can they then revive him with Last Will? If so, can that player then place Ob Nixilus back on a card in his original army after he is destroyed?
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