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  #241  
Old March 28th, 2022, 10:57 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
So I dug back a little bit in the discussion. When I first posted these, I had initially moved Drake SotM down to B+. A few people pushed back on it (Dysole and Jexik), with the reasoning being that he's really good for 4th Mass at some specific point totals (notably 450 and 520 points). I guess you could make an argument for Charos to be moved up for a similar reason? Like 4th Mass with Charos at 500 is similarly good... although I'd probably rather have 5x Mass, Alastair, Eldgrim at that point total. Obviously all of this also depends on figure limits too (I'd probably rather have 6x Mass Eldgrim instead of 4x Mass Drake SotM at 450 if I have 24 hexes).

I do think I'd rather have Drake SotM over Alastair and Sam Brown for the same reasons Chris laid out.
Makes sense. That can also be just due to 4th Mass being incredible though. If there were an A++ tier for Raelin, Q9, Rats, & MW, 4th (along with Knights, Gruts, etc) would probably make up the new A+ tier. In other words, if 4th are at the very tippy top of A it's not unrealistic that a B+ unit could really thrive with them
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  #242  
Old March 30th, 2022, 12:25 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
So I dug back a little bit in the discussion. When I first posted these, I had initially moved Drake SotM down to B+. A few people pushed back on it (Dysole and Jexik), with the reasoning being that he's really good for 4th Mass at some specific point totals (notably 450 and 520 points). I guess you could make an argument for Charos to be moved up for a similar reason? Like 4th Mass with Charos at 500 is similarly good... although I'd probably rather have 5x Mass, Alastair, Eldgrim at that point total. Obviously all of this also depends on figure limits too (I'd probably rather have 6x Mass Eldgrim instead of 4x Mass Drake SotM at 450 if I have 24 hexes).

I do think I'd rather have Drake SotM over Alastair and Sam Brown for the same reasons Chris laid out.
I see what you're saying. But surely, as @Chris Perkins said, surely the extreme specificity in which armies SOTM Drake fits in is a point against him being ranked so highly? Like, in order for SOTM Drake to be the optimal choice for your bring 1 army, the following criteria all have to be fulfilled:

1. You have to be playing 4th Mass. (If you're not, then you're almost universally better off running either Eltahale or Alastair + another squad of commons)

2. Following on from 1, you have to be at least 170 points under the point limit while still having a viable number of 4th. (In practice, this usually means that Drake is an unviable pick at point limits of 445 or less)

3. The point/hex limit must be such that it is not more viable to run some combination of Alastair, Eldgrim or another squad of 4th. (e.g. if you're 180 points under then Alastair + an extra squad of 4th is a better choice than Drake; you yourself mentioned how an extra 2 squads of 4th + Eldgrim is also a better pick if you have the spare hexes)

I don't doubt that Sgt. Drake can provide A-level value to the 4th Mass at a specific point total and hex limit. But that's the thing; it's only the 4th Mass, and it's only at a handful of combinations of point totals and hex limits. It's incredibly uncommon that you'll ever find him being the best choice for your bring 1 army, and it doesn't seem right to me that for a figure who requires such specific circumstances to work to be A- rank. I think B+ is a more fitting ranking; he can be a great pick under the right circumstances, but the fact that he only really works under those specific circumstances prevents him from being ranked among the A tiers.

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Last edited by Grey Waves; March 30th, 2022 at 01:47 AM.
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  #243  
Old March 30th, 2022, 10:59 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Grey Waves View Post
I don't doubt that Sgt. Drake can provide A-level value to the 4th Mass at a specific point total and hex limit. But that's the thing; it's only the 4th Mass, and it's only at a handful of combinations of point totals and hex limits. It's incredibly uncommon that you'll ever find him being the best choice for your bring 1 army, and it doesn't seem right to me that for a figure who requires such specific circumstances to work to be A- rank. I think B+ is a more fitting ranking; he can be a great pick under the right circumstances, but the fact that he only really works under those specific circumstances prevents him from being ranked among the A tiers.
You bring out some interesting points but then I look at the list and to me Sgt. Drake belongs much more in A- alongside McDrick than in B+ alongside Arkmer, Atlaga, Migol...
By your reasoning Migol should be F tier cause there is no reason to take him over Ulfrid or Morgrimm, or Darrack + whatever.
In a bring1 army you should never ever bring Migol but does Migol deserve F tier?

Drake V2 is a odd case, it does not have bonding, it does not have real synergy, you just take him to un-clog your SZ while not losing 1 defense die. But it's a good sidekick. I think your Alastar appreciation is biaised because of Alastar being played in bonding armies where he obviously shine more than Drake in a 4th Mass build who is just here to clean'up in endgame or extremly specific situations.
I don't think Alastar holds his A- at all in a 4th Mass build. While overextend can surprise sometimes, he's very fragile and Drake is a much better game closer, and that's what 4th Mass needs, they don't need a 10move rush for 1 attack of 5 around the map. 19 games out of 20 you'll not put any OM on the hero until he's the last man standing (or near) in your army, and at this game I feel Sgt. Drake is so much better, even being 60points more.

Tho I agree ranged squads spam is much less frequent than before and Drake is on the decline just like 4th Mass is. But still not deserve B+.

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  #244  
Old March 30th, 2022, 11:18 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
I don't think Alastar holds his A- at all in a 4th Mass build. While overextend can surprise sometimes, he's very fragile and Drake is a much better game closer, and that's what 4th Mass needs, they don't need a 10move rush for 1 attack of 5 around the map. 19 games out of 20 you'll not put any OM on the hero until he's the last man standing (or near) in your army, and at this game I feel Sgt. Drake is so much better, even being 60points more.
I actually strongly disagree with this assessment of Alastair in a 4th Mass build. One of the normal armies I include in my 4x400 armies is 4th x4 + Alastair, and in that army I almost always move Alastair up with 1 OM in round 1 to have as a threat piece for the rest of the game. There's generally not much you can shoot at with 4th in round 1, so the lost OM on 4th doesn't hurt too much. At least 75%+ of games with 4th I end up moving up the hero in round 1.

Especially in 4x400 type armies, he's really nice to have as a heavy hitter to threaten Q9, a dragon, Sir Gilbert, Raelin, or any other 'big' figure. He's also quite nice to put an OM3 on, followed by an OM1, to try and get 4 consecutive attacks into whatever figure he's trying to assassinate. 10 dice in 1 turn, and potentially 20 total over back to back turns, can absolutely turn a game you're gonna lose (i.e. facing Q9) into one you can win. He's a really nice piece to use when you need high variance to have a chance at turning the game around during the mid-game stages.

It's true that Alastair is more vulnerable, but if my opponent is throwing dice at him instead of 4th, I'm usually OK with that, and to pull off the move I described above he only really needs to have 2 life left anyways.

I might agree that he's an inferior end-game piece to Drake just based on survivability, but I don't think that's the optimal role for any paired hero in a 4th / valiant build. Drake / Alastair / Charos / whomever, I want them developed early to take some fire off the 4th and threaten stuff the 4th has trouble killing.
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  #245  
Old March 30th, 2022, 03:52 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Hmmm not convinced at all by this strategy. To me 4th Mass threaten big figures as much as Alastar do, and it would be a big mistake from you opponent to just let Alastar get a double 5 attack in a turn.

Imo no matter the 4th mass build putting OMs on valiant heroes in the early and mid game is not worth the risk and it just makes your life harder for nothing.
It's fancy and can work but imo full 4th is way more safe and efficient.

4th Mass builds would be stronger without them it was proven times and times, they are just here to unclog.

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  #246  
Old April 2nd, 2022, 08:04 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Gonna respond to this in parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
You bring out some interesting points but then I look at the list and to me Sgt. Drake belongs much more in A- alongside McDrick than in B+ alongside Arkmer, Atlaga, Migol...
By your reasoning Migol should be F tier cause there is no reason to take him over Ulfrid or Morgrimm, or Darrack + whatever.
In a bring1 army you should never ever bring Migol but does Migol deserve F tier?
No, Migol does not deserve F tier, and I never said that either he or Drake does. Just because a figure is outclassed does not mean that it is bad. Ironically, I actually think the ranking of Migol at B+ is a point towards Drake also being B+ and not A-, since both Migol are unique heroes that can be a good choice for a specific A-/A tier army, but are generally outclassed by the other options these armies can bring. (Mogrimm for axegrinders and Alastair + 60 points worth of commons for 4th). Being outclassed =/= bad, but being outclassed does affect a unit's ranking (at least slightly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
I think your Alastar appreciation is biaised because of Alastar being played in bonding armies where he obviously shine more than Drake in a 4th Mass build who is just here to clean'up in endgame or extremly specific situations.
I've actually never played Alastair in a bonding army before, so any suggestions that I might be biased because of that are false. I have played him with the 4th however, and was able to make great use of him vs. HS2010's AG/Mimring army in the most recent VCheese event. You can read HS2010's battle report here - while his army is a tad unconventional, many of the same principles regarding Alastair in 4th Mass builds do apply vs. other armies as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
I don't think Alastar holds his A- at all in a 4th Mass build. While overextend can surprise sometimes, he's very fragile and Drake is a much better game closer, and that's what 4th Mass needs, they don't need a 10move rush for 1 attack of 5 around the map. 19 games out of 20 you'll not put any OM on the hero until he's the last man standing (or near) in your army, and at this game I feel Sgt. Drake is so much better, even being 60points more.
Not going to say much here since I basically agree with everything that Chris already wrote in response to this, but yeah, the 4th get way more value out of having a big hitter than they do having a strong cleanup figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Hmmm not convinced at all by this strategy. To me 4th Mass threaten big figures as much as Alastar do, and it would be a big mistake from you opponent to just let Alastar get a double 5 attack in a turn.
Getting a double attack of 5 off is not nearly as hard as you seem to think it is, particularly during the late game or if you go for the initiative switch like Chris explained. The 4th are also nowhere near as threatening into stuff like Q9 as Alastair is - 2 attacks of 5, mathematically speaking, is way better into things with 7+ defence than 4 attacks of 3 are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Imo no matter the 4th mass build putting OMs on valiant heroes in the early and mid game is not worth the risk and it just makes your life harder for nothing.
It's fancy and can work but imo full 4th is way more safe and efficient.

4th Mass builds would be stronger without them it was proven times and times, they are just here to unclog.
Moving a valiant hero up in the early-mid game only costs a single OM and allows you to put them into a position where they can threaten heavy damage on your opponent's key hero/heroes. It's well worth the (minimal) risk. I'd actually be really interested to see any tournament results that prove that 'full 4th is way more efficient', considering that the results I've personally seen would tend to indicate the opposite. I've only been playing competitively for the last year and a bit though so there may be older tournament results that I'm unaware of.

Anyway, suffice to say that I don't find your arguments for Drake/against Alastair to be compelling and would still support a drop for Sgt Drake SOTM to B+ tier.

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Last edited by Grey Waves; April 3rd, 2022 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #247  
Old April 2nd, 2022, 06:05 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Some older results:

GC 2008:

SpiderPoison won Jandar (at 4-1) with 4x 4th, Drake SotM. He lost the finals game to Lonewolf's Trons, in part because there was a common attack glyph on the board, and in part because Lonewolf is probably the single best Trons player in history.

Mattser Truck Rally made Day 2 of Main Event with 5x 4th, Drake SotM (pre-RtW).

GC 2012:

Rollitontop made Day 2 with 4x 4th, Drake SotM (2nd year of RtW; average power level was still A).

There aren't really good results after this, as formats have shifted substantially. 450 points was a pretty common/standard point total, and the 4x 4th, Drake SotM fit perfectly there. While the 6x 4th, Eldgrim build is stronger (and had good results), it required 24 hexes, and the Drake version really isn't too far below that in power level.

Unsurprisingly, I didn't see a single 4th + Alastair result (not that I checked old local tourney results, but I imagine the trend would continue). I think high B+ or low A- is fine for Drake. He's definitely better than Migol, and he plays well with 4th. He's pretty close to Cyprien imo, and I think the average Drake + 4th build is better than the average Cyprien + whatever build. Part of that is the strength of the 4th, but Drake definitely carries his weight.
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  #248  
Old April 3rd, 2022, 02:02 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Are these new rankings going to remain unchanged until after ScapeCon? (For planning our A and B+ armies.)
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  #249  
Old April 3rd, 2022, 02:14 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Mr Migraine View Post
Are these new rankings going to remain unchanged until after ScapeCon? (For planning our A and B+ armies.)
The A+s will definitely remain unchanged, so the ban list for all the A and Under side events is final (Raelin, Rats, Q9, MWs). Some combination of at least two or three out of these four units cause balance issues in every side event they’ve been banned from. I also want to promote a more fun and casual environment and faster games (all four units are hyper-defensive, especially in combination).

There likely won’t be significant changes to the B+ and Under list, but I suppose there could be tweaks. For example, I’m still considering dropping Drake SotM to B+. I’ll figure out a final date for changes.
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  #250  
Old April 3rd, 2022, 09:38 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
Some older results:

GC 2008:

SpiderPoison won Jandar (at 4-1) with 4x 4th, Drake SotM. He lost the finals game to Lonewolf's Trons, in part because there was a common attack glyph on the board, and in part because Lonewolf is probably the single best Trons player in history.

Mattser Truck Rally made Day 2 of Main Event with 5x 4th, Drake SotM (pre-RtW).

GC 2012:

Rollitontop made Day 2 with 4x 4th, Drake SotM (2nd year of RtW; average power level was still A).
I'll be honest and say that I'm not impressed by those results for Drake SoTM, at least to qualify him for A-. 4-1 in a General Wars in 2008, and a random RtW Day 2 appearance in 2012? I recognize that armies were strong in 2012 still, but man. If those are SotM Drake's best results that's not great. That 2012 build is clearly playing Drake to tone down the power of the army.

Personally I've never understood the Drake SotM power ranking love. When I did my rankings I put Drake RotV equal with Drake SotM. Pound for pound, Drake SotM may be better, but Drake RotV slots in a much better point range for adding a big hitter to your army.

Drake and Cyprien both are figures that make it clear that Heroscape is a game about armies, not about single figure performance. Both get overwhelmed by most coherent armies and don't fit into builds well. Ultimately, I think I'd personally power rank Cyprien above Drake just because Stealth Flying + Chilling Touch can win games. If you're playing Cyprien into Nilfheim Greenscales you have at least a 15% chance to win the game because 15% of the time Cyp is just going to one-shot Nilfheim. Drake doesn't have that same high-roll performance to bring up his average. I think SotM Drake's mode median and mean performance is getting stuffed by a horde of squad figures and taking out ~50 points worth of them.
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  #251  
Old April 3rd, 2022, 10:26 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
Some older results:

GC 2008:

SpiderPoison won Jandar (at 4-1) with 4x 4th, Drake SotM. He lost the finals game to Lonewolf's Trons, in part because there was a common attack glyph on the board, and in part because Lonewolf is probably the single best Trons player in history.

Mattser Truck Rally made Day 2 of Main Event with 5x 4th, Drake SotM (pre-RtW).

GC 2012:

Rollitontop made Day 2 with 4x 4th, Drake SotM (2nd year of RtW; average power level was still A).
I'll be honest and say that I'm not impressed by those results for Drake SoTM, at least to qualify him for A-. 4-1 in a General Wars in 2008, and a random RtW Day 2 appearance in 2012? I recognize that armies were strong in 2012 still, but man. If those are SotM Drake's best results that's not great. That 2012 build is clearly playing Drake to tone down the power of the army.

Personally I've never understood the Drake SotM power ranking love. When I did my rankings I put Drake RotV equal with Drake SotM. Pound for pound, Drake SotM may be better, but Drake RotV slots in a much better point range for adding a big hitter to your army.

Drake and Cyprien both are figures that make it clear that Heroscape is a game about armies, not about single figure performance. Both get overwhelmed by most coherent armies and don't fit into builds well. Ultimately, I think I'd personally power rank Cyprien above Drake just because Stealth Flying + Chilling Touch can win games. If you're playing Cyprien into Nilfheim Greenscales you have at least a 15% chance to win the game because 15% of the time Cyp is just going to one-shot Nilfheim. Drake doesn't have that same high-roll performance to bring up his average. I think SotM Drake's mode median and mean performance is getting stuffed by a horde of squad figures and taking out ~50 points worth of them.
Yeah, I mean these results had more to do with the difference in results (and overall usage) between Drake SotM and Alastair. However, I think the fact that both Spider and Mattser chose him over 2 more squads in 2008 says something. Yes the 6x 4th build is almost certainly better, but the Drake build isn't far behind. I don't think it's necessarily fair to say what you said of the 2012 build either; the average army power level was extremely high, and it was the first year of attendance for a lot of the players. I don't think many people were really building around RtW at that point, but I don't have any concrete evidence to support my inference of most people's mindsets outside the strength of the armies (4th, Glad Blast, Nilfheim Greenscales...).

There are some random local results (like Strack placed 7/60 with Q9, 2x Rats, Krav, Drake SotM at TTO III, beating some A/A- builds), but the issue is that local tourneys (some of which were a big deal and featured GenCon-level competition) were largely undocumented. Maybe @Jexik has some insight here.

Edit: I'm mostly just sad now because old results are pretty much forever lost.
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  #252  
Old April 4th, 2022, 09:58 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

I'm more convinced by Drake sotm results (appearance to day2 in cheese format is something) than Alastair results which are basically «won me a game thanks to my opponnent letting him go to my raelin and because I got lucky init switch.»
Really, replay that machup 10times, I'm pretty sure Alastair does not do **** in at least 7 games.
Funny you brougth that game because Drake sotm is a monster vs this AG build without Krug.

To me they have similar power level, both have their pros and cons, Alastair is cheaper and threaten more in the midgame, if he is on the board opponnent have to play with him in mind (which heroscaper2010 did not) or you can punish him. Tho to me you are basically paying 110pts just for the threat effect cause Alastair is really bottom tier in late game.
Drake is less threating cause he's slower and can't double attack but he's much more consistent late game.

To me they are similar level with 4th mass, Alastair do have other builds tho while Drake does not.


Last edited by Foudzing; April 4th, 2022 at 10:15 AM.
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