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View Poll Results: How do you interpret the word "random" in these situations
Players MUST always roll a dice or shuffle the order markers and without either player looking 7 16.67%
Owner MUST shuffle/rearrange OMs but can look before the player chooses which he/she removes 0 0%
Owner CAN shuffle/rearrange OMs and can look before the player chooses, but is not required 8 19.05%
Owner CAN rearrange OMs but MUST do while looking before the player chooses, but is not required 1 2.38%
Owner CANNOT shuffle/rearrange OMs before the player chooses. OMs must be placed strategically 17 40.48%
Depends on who you play with and mood players are in, but can be decided differently each game 9 21.43%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #25  
Old January 21st, 2021, 03:53 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

True random would be rolling the die or shuffling them to the point where neither party knows the numbers. "Strategy/Guesswork/Intuition/Pokerface"-style random is when the Fylorag Spiders remove an OM, which if yer opponent is smart and has his Unrevealeds in a somewhat random pattern is more in line with your gut or reading your opponent.

So I put Option 1.

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  #26  
Old January 21st, 2021, 03:56 PM
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Re: Juicy Goodness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
There's no advantage to moving your OMs to a "strategic" position after placing them, except that you might have forgot to place them strategically initially. So let's say your opponent moves out the Mindflayer on his OM1 and you realize you need to disguise your left to right 1 2 3 X placement before his next turn with the Mindflayer when he can knock off one of your OMs.

In general in competitive games (where I'm playing armies with relevant OM management) I do physically place my OMs "strategically", just so my opponent doesn't try to read my OMs based on their physical placement. I doubt this has ever changed the outcome of a game though.

I do agree with KoS that not letting your opponent do that sort of shuffling during "your turn", if you hit a Psionic Blast, is a bit mean. It's just something they forgot to do, there's no game skill involved, and it actually is a huge impact on the outcome of the game because it vastly changes the power of the OM removal. To be honest I'd probably let my opponent do it if they asked to unless I was playing dok.
I plan on playing MFM x 5 for the main event and I'm going to watch you place your OMs like a hawk.
500 points/10 figures or something? ~_^

~Dysole, who'd probably run Sudema and something if that was the actual GC setup; don't have to worry about this OM business just kill things
Good job cathcing that...or was that just a rope a dope? Only 3.5 people know the answer to that...

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Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; January 21st, 2021 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Or is my build much more sinister???...
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  #27  
Old January 21st, 2021, 04:11 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

I really think this is getting blown out of proportion. We're talking about the MFM here. He's decent, but if they spent an OM on him and kill one of yours, that's a fine trade for you. I don't buy that him killing one of your OMs will "ruin your game" or whatever- it's not like he did very much on his OM. You shouldn't be losing to the MFM- and if you are (and this "costs you the game" or whatever), the real secret is you've made plenty of mistakes leading up to that point. Again, this is really a non-issue in "competitive" play.

However, even if you put your OMs in a line, your opponent doesn't know that. You could have just as easily not put them in a line. Just keep a poker face, as they have no way of knowing what you did. Further, unless you only have one army card left, the fact that you put the "X" on that card proves that you DID know they had an OM-stripping ability. Finally, as for forcing them to play by your interpretation, the ruling is the ruling. It's no different than rolling up and being told by your opponent that your Airborne count against the figure/hex limit, forcing you to sit figures. It's not the opponent's fault.

I want to stress how much of a non-issue this really is. Personally, I'd probably just let you shuffle them; I really don't care that much. However, the ruling is the ruling, and I wouldn't enforce otherwise.

The nice thing about games is that both players can agree to do basically whatever they want. I'm not going to walk over and DQ you both if I see you shuffling OMs. Heck, if you want to just wrestle to see who wins the game, or see who can eat more tacos from the taco truck in five minutes to settle a ruling, or whatever else you decide to do, that's totally cool!
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  #28  
Old January 21st, 2021, 04:24 PM
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This is no trivial matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
I don't buy that him killing one of your OMs will "ruin your game" or whatever- it's not like he did very much on his OM. You shouldn't be losing to the MFM- and if you are (and this "costs you the game" or whatever), the real secret is you've made plenty of mistakes leading up to that point.
Tell that to the OFFICIAL power ranking:

Quote:
Power Ranking and Master Index
Mind Flayer Mastermind- Low survivability keeps his game-altering powers in check. C
We're talking game-altering powers here. Very serious business. Human sacrifice, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!

~TAF, surprised more people haven't voted Option 6 because it's probably the correct one at the end of the day

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in THE ENEMY'S LAST RETREAT

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  #29  
Old January 21st, 2021, 05:00 PM
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Re: This is no trivial matter

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Originally Posted by TheAverageFan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
I don't buy that him killing one of your OMs will "ruin your game" or whatever- it's not like he did very much on his OM. You shouldn't be losing to the MFM- and if you are (and this "costs you the game" or whatever), the real secret is you've made plenty of mistakes leading up to that point.
Tell that to the OFFICIAL power ranking:

Quote:
Power Ranking and Master Index
Mind Flayer Mastermind- Low survivability keeps his game-altering powers in check. C
We're talking game-altering powers here. Very serious business. Human sacrifice, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!

~TAF, surprised more people haven't voted Option 6 because it's probably the correct one at the end of the day
Lol, even if you got to look at their OMs before choosing, he'd still be a B, maybe a B+. Enslave is the big play power. The fact that he has to hit them with a 3-die attack to strip an OM, coupled with a 4/4 D/L stat line, means he'd still be mediocre.

And are you really going to trust a guy who passed up the opportunity to say it's a mind-altering ability? Come on now.
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  #30  
Old January 21st, 2021, 05:12 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
I really think this is getting blown out of proportion. We're talking about the MFM here. He's decent, but if they spent an OM on him and kill one of yours, that's a fine trade for you. I don't buy that him killing one of your OMs will "ruin your game" or whatever- it's not like he did very much on his OM. You shouldn't be losing to the MFM- and if you are (and this "costs you the game" or whatever), the real secret is you've made plenty of mistakes leading up to that point. Again, this is really a non-issue in "competitive" play.

However, even if you put your OMs in a line, your opponent doesn't know that. You could have just as easily not put them in a line. Just keep a poker face, as they have no way of knowing what you did. Further, unless you only have one army card left, the fact that you put the "X" on that card proves that you DID know they had an OM-stripping ability. Finally, as for forcing them to play by your interpretation, the ruling is the ruling. It's no different than rolling up and being told by your opponent that your Airborne count against the figure/hex limit, forcing you to sit figures. It's not the opponent's fault.
I agree that this isn't a particularly important question, and that it probably comes up rarely. I do take some issue with the idea of "the ruling is the ruling," why are we having this discussion? As far as I know, there is no official ruling or FAQ on this issue. I understand that GenCon has their own ruling, and if I ever go to GenCon, I'd certainly abide by that ruling, but GenCon isn't an official rules source. Lefton4ya is also a TD, and based on this poll, he has a different interpretation of the rules than you.

Clearly, as a player in a tournament, the answer is to check with the TD beforehand about potential ambiguities and to abide by their ruling. But since we aren't at any particular tournament right now, it's valid to talk about what the most "correct" ruling is, and how TD's ought to rule on this question. If we don't all come to the same answer, it doesn't really matter, not all tournaments have to use the exact same interpretation of the rules. Nevertheless, I don't think it's a pointless discussion to have.

~KoS, who admittedly spends a lot of time thinking about questions with fairly limited practical value.
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  #31  
Old January 21st, 2021, 05:29 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

I'd just shuffle 'em around in a cup like dice and draw one. My 2cents.
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  #32  
Old January 21st, 2021, 05:34 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Ok, but I never said it was pointless. Brewster asked if there was a GenCon ruling. There is. I'm not saying everyone has to follow that ruling. However, when I say "the ruling is the ruling," I suppose I really mean "the ruling is the ruling until such point that the ruling is no longer the ruling."

As I said earlier, I'm open to hearing arguments as to why it has to change. I haven't heard a strong enough argument to warrant changing it yet. However, if it becomes clear that it should change, I will be more than happy to advocate for its change.

Finally, as to GenCon not being an "official" rules source, that's certainly true. However, most local TDs fall in line with what Ken decides. Ken's rulings are basically as official as you get while not technically being "official." Again, local TDs may rule as they please, but GenCon has been a driving force in rules for the last 15 years.

Last edited by OEAO; January 21st, 2021 at 06:17 PM.
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  #33  
Old January 22nd, 2021, 04:00 AM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Believe it or not, Orc, yes a clutch MFM psionic blast did cost me the game, and only because the turn it stole was so vital. It wasn't a competitive game, no. I wasn't playing a very good army (neither was my opponent). But it was a super close game, it could have been anyone's game, except for the fact that my opponent was able to skip a vital turn of mine and know nearly for certian which OM would do it. It was a rare scenario, yeah. Still felt like utter garbage. Especially since I could have easily killed the MFM earlier in the game if I thought its power was that good (and it is good... if you can strategically skip your opponents turns).

Anyway, I am satisfied with the ruling. Well, not really, but if you haven't been convinced by anything I've said so far, I've got nothing else. I guess I'll just play accordingly at tournaments and others' houses, unless we're at my house and then you better be prepared to roll some friggin' dice if the card says 'random'.
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  #34  
Old January 22nd, 2021, 09:04 AM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Just play it how you want to play it, as long as it's random or arbitrary enough, this really shouldn't be an issue. It's just pedantry for a children's game, really. We have no official ruling on it, so you can play to the unofficial Gencon Standard if you wish, that doesn't mean it's the only correct way.

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  #35  
Old January 22nd, 2021, 11:48 AM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
As a quick aside, is a thread with a current list of GenCon rulings something that the community would like to see? Most people that play at GenCon are aware of the rulings we use, but perhaps that would be helpful?
Iíd like to see this.

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  #36  
Old January 22nd, 2021, 11:57 AM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rˇchean View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
As a quick aside, is a thread with a current list of GenCon rulings something that the community would like to see? Most people that play at GenCon are aware of the rulings we use, but perhaps that would be helpful?
I’d like to see this.
Cool, I'll talk to Ken and try to get something up this weekend. It'll obviously be progressively updated as I can't immediately remember everything that he's ruled, but I'll try to recall what I can. I can feel old age taking me already...

Last edited by OEAO; January 22nd, 2021 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Now I know how Ken always feels...
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