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  #73  
Old July 10th, 2014, 12:13 PM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

Thank you for the idea. Sadly, I have only one mindflayer and I don't have Isamu lol.(to tell you the truth, I don't have a lot of the people you suggested, pretty ironic.)
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  #74  
Old April 6th, 2015, 06:58 PM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

Mind Flayer Mastermind
C3V and SoV Custom Synergies
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  #75  
Old June 29th, 2017, 02:30 AM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

I fell in love with this guy today. In a 1v1v1 battle, he single handily killed the Izumi, and sent Kaemon Awa and Kato Katsuro to a fiery death with Enslave. (We had lava in the center) all five figures belonged to one player, so he was pretty pissed. As a clean up unit, he did his job amazingly.

Never tell me the odds, because I already know 'em...

Also a sucker for anything Warforged...
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  #76  
Old January 18th, 2021, 03:38 PM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

Question about Psionic Blast.

It says remove an OM "at random".

I had a scenario a week ago where a buddy of mine successfully pulled off a psionic blast on my figure than had 2 OMs (3 and X) on it, and he wanted to just pick one of the unrevealed markers (guessing which marker was the 3, and which was the X). I wanted him to roll (evens 3, odds X).

Am I wrong in thinking that his method is not sufficiently "random" enough, because he can use some strategy to choose which order marker is likely next? I think anything that says "at random" should involve pure chance, like a dice roll or a coin flip. Not just reaching out and removing an unrevealed marker.
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  #77  
Old January 18th, 2021, 05:26 PM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

I've always interpreted it as the OM is picked by the player using the power at random without knowing for sure which OM is which. As such I mixed up how I place my OMs down. But if say, you have the bad habit of always putting your OMs in a line going from highest to lowest, then yeah I can see how they would know which one to choose. If you can't break yourself of that bad habit and protect yourself from a tell, then you could ask before the game starts if everyone would agree to use a d20 to decide. I do a lot of solo-testing for C3G and I use the d20 to determine which OM is moved/revealed/etc. when those powers come up since I know what each OM is. I don't do the odd/even thing but the high/low/middle approach. 1-10 vs 11-20 for 2 OMs, or 1-6 vs 7-12 vs 13-18, 19-20 is a re-roll for 3 OMs, and 1-5 vs 2-10 vs 11-15 vs 16-20 for 4 OMs.
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  #78  
Old January 19th, 2021, 03:18 PM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

Oh goody, you brought up my Biggest rule-lawyer pet peeve: RANDOM vs ARBITRARY - see BGG thread for pages of discussion there, but ultimately lead to me asking: Does drawing a random card enforce shuffling? - it is asking about cards but can be applied to order markers as well. The "consensus" there was "players CAN shuffle or rearrange if they want and CAN look at the cards order markers before drawing, but neither is required." Basically I wish the card read either:
Quote:
... remove one unrevealed order marker at random without looking at it from that...
OR
Quote:
... arbitrarily remove one unrevealed order marker at random from that...
However I seem to be the only person that loves using the word arbitrarily correctly when most rules use the word random when in my view it really means arbitrary. If you want to take RANDOM by a very literal definition - then you must do things like roll dice, or take order markers and shuffle them and draw without your opponent seeing until after you draw. But again in my view you will get called a RULES LAWER by most people in putting the LETTER of the rules above the SPIRIT of the rules, as most people (81% according to my poll) think even game designers do not want you to interpret random in that strict sense.
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  #79  
Old January 19th, 2021, 03:58 PM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

So I can say with 99% certainty that I've seen a heroscape celebrity play (not with Mindflayer, with Spiders Entangling Web) it the non-random way, trying to predict where his opponent had put the OMs on the card. Personally I think that's valid, I've always seen it as a small difference between online and in person play that you can't do that sort of OM sniping online. If it were truly supposed to be random, it would say something about rolling a die to determine which one was removed.
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  #80  
Old January 20th, 2021, 10:17 AM
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Mathematically

I remember learning that the word arbitrary was the one I wanted in a proof rather than random in a 300 level math class which most people aren't going to be taking. But yeah I've always understood it as being able to pick and choose.

~Dysole, noting that in online when you play her, you actually can play the psychology game due to her punny order markers
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  #81  
Old January 21st, 2021, 04:24 AM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
Oh goody, you brought up my Biggest rule-lawyer pet peeve: RANDOM vs ARBITRARY - see BGG thread for pages of discussion there, but ultimately lead to me asking: Does drawing a random card enforce shuffling? - it is asking about cards but can be applied to order markers as well. The "consensus" there was "players CAN shuffle or rearrange if they want and CAN look at the cards order markers before drawing, but neither is required." Basically I wish the card read either:
Quote:
... remove one unrevealed order marker at random without looking at it from that...
OR
Quote:
... arbitrarily remove one unrevealed order marker at random from that...
However I seem to be the only person that loves using the word arbitrarily correctly when most rules use the word random when in my view it really means arbitrary. If you want to take RANDOM by a very literal definition - then you must do things like roll dice, or take order markers and shuffle them and draw without your opponent seeing until after you draw. But again in my view you will get called a RULES LAWER by most people in putting the LETTER of the rules above the SPIRIT of the rules, as most people (81% according to my poll) think even game designers do not want you to interpret random in that strict sense.
I think the issue that was taken with your usage of the word "arbitrarily" is that arbitrary means either randomly or on a whim. So for all intents and purposes, it's a synonym for "randomly" here. If what you mean is the alternative to "choosing randomly" is "deciding between unrevealed markers", then there is no need for the word arbitrary OR random. The rules should just say "choose an unrevealed marker", and the methodology of the choosing can be whatever (chance, strategy, intuition, inkling, whim, divine revelation, etc.).

Now it seems as though most players here (and my opponent at the time of the incident I bring up) think the 'Rules as Intended' mean to choose an unrevealed marker, not strictly by random method. But 'Rules as Written' say random, and random entails the choice is not made by method of any strategy, or even inkling, intuition, or whim. Random means random. No conscious influence on the decision. Each option has an equal chance of being chosen.

Now, I get that people like to play "how they always played it", but this is a game that occasionally has tournaments, and I want to know the actual rules. Is there any evidence at all that players were intended to be allowed to choose freely among unrevealed markers, without any process of *actual* randomization? Anyone who actually developed this mechanic have anything to say about it? Any instances of an ability like this being ruled on at an officiated tournament like GenCon or something? Because as far as I see it, people are simply treating this card as if it does not say "randomly" because of a consensus that picking an unrevealed marker based on a slight strategy is more fun for them. Well, it's not so fun when your 50/50 shot of success or failure is sometimes a guaranteed loss due to situations like this.
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  #82  
Old January 21st, 2021, 09:28 AM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewster View Post
...Random means random.
or does it....
@Brewster I 100% agree with all your logic, except that the word "random" used in boardgames (including but far from limited to Heroscape) is so customarily means your various views of what arbitrary could mean (chance, strategy, intuition, inkling, whim, divine revelation, etc.) that the word random when used in the context of the power in question has literally changed definition. If I say I am gay, most people's minds goes to thinking one thing, even if I am using it in the
1890's meaning of what gay meant 1890's meaning of what gay meant
, the word has literally changed meaning in 100 years. Therefore I argue random has literally changed meaning to the degree that the word gay has that random no longer means the same thing when used in a math/science textbook as it does in a rulebook. As to prove use as this way in Heroscape, I have played Heroscape tournaments and everyone I played with when random was used such as Mind Flayer Mastermind, it was the owner's decision whether they should be shuffled first or I just "randomly" took one - shuffling order markers or rolling a die was not required. I have even seen this backed up by tournament directors. If you want more proof, see @vegietarian18 quote where he is all but pointing to a Heroscape designer (without naming names) as also playing this way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
So I can say with 99% certainty that I've seen a heroscape celebrity play (not with Mindflayer, with Spiders Entangling Web) it the non-random way, trying to predict where his opponent had put the OMs on the card. Personally I think that's valid, I've always seen it as a small difference between online and in person play that you can't do that sort of OM sniping online. If it were truly supposed to be random, it would say something about rolling a die to determine which one was removed.
See also the example of designer Craig Van Ness using the "Spirit of the Rule" overruling the "Letter of the Rule" - and he had the same spirit when actually coming up with words for rules/powers for the game. Watch what happens at 6:40 and on in this video. I try to play by the same spirit the designers did.

BTW, I could go all day in this topic

Last edited by lefton4ya; January 21st, 2021 at 10:01 AM.
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  #83  
Old January 21st, 2021, 09:33 AM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

At GenCon, the rule is that you choose the order marker you want to kill. It is important to note that you don’t get to look at the OM you kill- something I did wrong for probably a decade in home games.

Edit: Also, you should be having fun regardless of whether you win or lose...?

Last edited by OEAO; January 21st, 2021 at 09:54 AM.
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  #84  
Old January 21st, 2021, 10:38 AM
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Re: The Book of the Mind Flayer Mastermind

Started a poll Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
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