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  #337  
Old January 5th, 2021, 12:42 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
The problem is in interactions with powers like Knockback, which happen "immediately." Knockback in particular has nasty, complicated interactions with triggered powers, so I don't want to create a whole new set of rulings for Blink.
That makes sense. I was moreso referring to it potentially being confusing that Shift occurs immediately, but Blink (which uses Shift) still does not. In any case, I think that the distinction won't cause significant enough trouble for new players to be worth adding many new rulings for (which would probably be more difficult for everyone in the long run).

So we just need to strike out immediately from the OP, NecroBlade, whenever you get a chance. It looks like the OP also has "from an opponent's figure" as a clause to trigger Blink, but I don't think that addition should cause any problems? If it's easy to keep it, then I think that we should to avoid another Deathreavers situation.
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Old January 5th, 2021, 12:44 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
It looks like the OP also has "from an opponent's figure" as a clause to trigger Blink, but I don't think that addition should cause any problems? If it's easy to keep it, then I think that we should to avoid another Deathreavers situation.
That should be fine.
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  #339  
Old January 5th, 2021, 12:47 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Perfect. These should be the new powers in the OP, then:
Quote:
SHIFT
After moving normally, you may immediately place a Velnesh Alpha on any empty space within 2 spaces of its current placement. Velnesh Alphas will not take leaving engagement attacks while Shifting.

BLINK
After a Velnesh Alpha rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's figure and is not destroyed, it may move using its Shift special power.
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  #340  
Old January 7th, 2021, 02:54 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

I ran two games with the Velnesh today. Thanks to a strange turn of events, I only had access to a random assortment of figures, the AotP boxes, and lots of Grok Riders, so I made due with what I had.

CUSTOM MAP:
Spoiler Alert!

440 Points
No Glyphs
Dawn: 3x Grok Riders, Me-Burq-Sa
Astro: Raelin (SotM), Deathwalker 8000, 1x Microcorp Troopers, Velnesh Alphas

GAME SUMMARY:
Spoiler Alert!

SURVIVING UNITS:
4x Grok Riders
~170 Points Left

POWER USAGE:
Shift and Blink were used almost every turn. The Velnesh wouldn't have survived as long without teleporting out of extra engagements with Blink, and Shift was used to escape unfavorable engagements and grab height on the others. Both powers were super fun and useful.

Total Damage Dealt: 3x Grok Riders ("130 Points")
Remember these are Groks. 130 is on the high end as far as estimates go.

THOUGHTS:
They felt pretty fair and balanced. They can be terrifying when the dice go their way, but 4 defense ensures that they'll whiff often enough that it'll hurt. I'll write up the other game I ran with these guys later, but I'm content with sending them on at this point.
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  #341  
Old January 16th, 2021, 11:05 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Added that last playtest to the OP.


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  #342  
Old January 16th, 2021, 02:06 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Quoting this because it was a duel playtest. Thoughts on the Velnesh are in the last paragraph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinderella View Post
Map: Ruined City
Glyphs: Ulaniva, Dagmar (unused)

Army 1: Shaolin Monks x3, Master Lao Xin, Yi Feng (430 points)
Army 2: Ozuul, Velnesh Alphas, Raelin, Eldgrim, Isamu (400 points)

Versions used:
Ozuul
Spoiler Alert!


Velnesh Alphas
Spoiler Alert!


Which units survived?
Master Lao Xin with 2 wounds.

Turn by turn brief
Spoiler Alert!


How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?
As a disclaimer, I was wrong on my math for the Shaolin team, for some reason I had the three squads jotted down as 70 points each instead of 80, and only realised upon putting this together. Sorry

Ozuul was pretty strong this game, killing 6 Shaolin and Yi Feng for a total of 220 points. Despite having just one game with him, he’s obviously very powerful against armies that like to group up. The extra move, whilst only used once, got him into a great position to immediately crush 4 monks, and was certainly nice to have that option. It wasn’t game claiming, but it certainly was an intimidating start for the monks to lose almost half their forces round 1. He has the ability to be a decent hero killer too with his 6 attack.

I need to give him another test as from this game alone I could see him being at this point range or even a bit lower. Against squads the matchup can fall either way very quickly, but compared to dragons who have ranged abilities that can also deal with squads, far better mobility and various things to bond with, he seems to be a bit lacking. He does have more health granted, and I’d need to test him more to see if this was a good match up or whether he can more reliably create these set ups. Being able to pull figures off of high ground without a roll is a pretty powerful ability though. And playtests from others have supported that he’s in this sort of price range. I do feel like the enemy team was very much a good match up for him, and against a lot of enemies I don't think he'll perform quite as well.

As for the Velnesh, I felt like they underperformed a bit. I had played another game with them prior to this but they all died to some Ravagers before being able to attack anything. They’re a very compelling and fun unit though, their shifts are incredibly good at closing gaps and suddenly getting on top of ranged figures. They dealt a single wound to Master Lao Xin and that was most of their achievements this game. Their blinks activated a few times and was quite effective at nullifying other Shaolins’ attacks. I need some more games with these guys because I feel like I may not have played them correctly. I’ll emphasise the point that they’re a very fun squad though, and on maps with more terrain and elevations they will be more powerful.
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  #343  
Old January 28th, 2021, 01:44 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Here's the other game that I had run with these guys back on 1/7/2021:

CUSTOM MAP:
Spoiler Alert!

~400 Points
Glyphs: Knowledge, Recall, Healing
Astro: Velnesh Alphas, Masha Shingai, Tagawa Samurai Archers x3 (395)
Dawn: 4x Marro Stingers, Major Q10 (390)

GAME SUMMARY:
I kind of derped out a bit in building these armies--my original intention was to give Dawn something worse than Major Q10 to round out her army and myself Raelin since TSA + Raelin + Masha isn't unplayable. Unfortunately, after a series of mistakes, neither of those were true and one army was clearly superior to the other.

That said, the game ended up being surprisingly close. I led with Masha and the TSA, setting up a pod on the nearby height. Dawn anticipated this of course, leading with Major Q10 who was unhindered by Masha. Unfortunately, the Velnesh Alphas couldn't quite bridge the water in front of my starting zone to get within range of Q10 on a second OM, so I circled around with the TSA, taking potshots at Q10 (getting lucky and dealing 1 wound) and then shooting down on her starting zone. The next round saw an initiative switch, and Q10 moved even closer, killing two of the Velnesh Alphas with his Machine Pistol Special Attack (the other one blocked the initial attack, then Blinked a little closer to get within reach for my next OM). Dawn directed the final attack at Masha, dealing 2 damage to bring him up to a total of 3 wounds.

I then revealed my OM1 on the Velnesh, having expected more of them to not whiff. Left with little other choice, I ran the Velnesh Alpha up, Shifted across the water to get to Q10, and attacked up at him with reckless abandon. I rolled 3 skulls, and Dawn rolled 0 shields on six dice, killing Q10 nearly instantly. The stingers finished off that Velnesh the next turn, but the damage was done.

I then claimed the Glyph of Healing with a TSA, giving Masha a pitiful +1 life while Dawn got to bring back another Stinger (at this point, she still had a full 3 squads). They finished off Masha anyway the next turn, and then started annihilating the TSA. Eventually, it got down to one TSA in my starting zone against 8 stingers. He made a valiant effort, abusing his 6 range as much as possible by forcing the Stingers to get into water and give him height to get close enough to attack, but he was only able to take down 3 Stingers before being outnumbered.

SURVIVING UNITS:
5 Marro Stingers
~100 Points Left

POWER USAGE:
Blink and Shift were each used exactly once this game. In theory, the Velnesh were my answer to Q10, but two of them whiffing against his pistols resulted in them getting crippled very early on. Still, by dumb luck the last one managed to deal 3 wounds to Q10 from a height disadvantage, earning back their points and then some. This was critical because otherwise Q10 would've wrecked the rest of my army, too.

Total Damage Dealt: 3 wounds to Q10, ~120 Points

THOUGHTS:
The Velnesh both underperformed and overperformed in this game--in theory, they should've done much better if they had survived the initial barrage, but the last one also had a pretty lucky strike up at Q10 that was instrumental in closing the gap between our armies. They're somewhat high variance against ranged figures; they're really reliant on their 4 defense to hold out, but it it does, they can deal a lot of damage. It reminds me of the Ninjas of the Northern Wind, albeit the Ninja's D20 and 3 defense is generally better at the cost of being more expensive and having less control over changes in elevation/crossing water for 20 more points. I think that the comparison to them is fair, and even if this unit underperforms in some games, it's in a pretty good place overall.

If we want to run more tests with these guys (after re-reviewing the tests linked in the OP, I think that a couple of more tests wouldn't hurt), I think that they should be against primarily melee units. The Velnesh are considerably better when they can get the first strike, and we've more or less established that they're a bit higher variance against range where some might die to the initial volley. Seeing them in their ideal environment (against B-tier melee armies) would paint a more complete picture of their effectiveness at 90 points.
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  #344  
Old January 30th, 2021, 12:07 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Velnesh were included in these tests, though only really used in 2 of them. They averaged 117 points in those games, or 59 if you include doing nothing twice. I honestly don't think we need more tests and that the Velnesh Alphas are ready to call complete. They have shown that their reliance on their defense instead of a special defensive power can let them down, but also that their solid stats can stand up to solid opponents. They've also gotten a response of "fun!" pretty much from the beginning and the whole way through.

I'll make sure all the tests are in the OP and see if there's any more discussion. But I would expect a vote soon.


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  #345  
Old January 31st, 2021, 02:15 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Velnesh were included in these tests, though only really used in 2 of them. They averaged 117 points in those games, or 59 if you include doing nothing twice. I honestly don't think we need more tests and that the Velnesh Alphas are ready to call complete. They have shown that their reliance on their defense instead of a special defensive power can let them down, but also that their solid stats can stand up to solid opponents. They've also gotten a response of "fun!" pretty much from the beginning and the whole way through.

I'll make sure all the tests are in the OP and see if there's any more discussion. But I would expect a vote soon.
I disagree that they're ready for a vote at this point after having reviewed the games again. I think that they're close, but we should do our due diligence in making sure that the drop to 90 was fine first. It's only 10 points, but that can make or break a lot of builds. I'm frankly concerned at the builds that we've been running Velnesh in; for context, here's a quick stats breakdown:

1: Velnesh + Honor Guards/Sharpshooters vs. Mariedians
2: Velnesh + Honor Guards/Sharpshooters vs. Mariedians
*3: Velnesh + Unique Hodgepodge vs. Wolves of Badru:
4: Velnesh + Varkaanans vs. Mariedians
*5: Velnesh Hodgepodge vs. Stingers + Ozuul Hodgepodge (game not completed, speculated that they would've killed over their points if so)
*6: Unique Hodgepodge vs. Zombies
*7: Velnesh + 12th Caucasus vs. Hodgepodge
*8: Unique Hodgepodge vs. Unique Hodgepodge (Including 4 AotV units)
*9: Velnesh + Greenscales vs. Yokai
10: Velnesh + Gorillinators vs. Romans
11: Hodgepodge vs. Grok Riders (killed "over" their points by technicality because they killed 3 Groks)
*12: Ozuul Hodgepodge vs. Monks
13: TSA vs. Stingers/Q10 (technically this one included Masha, an unfinalized unit, too, but that held them back more than anything else and I've played ~30 tests with him alone)
*14: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Unique Hodgepodge (including 5 AotV Units)
*15: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Unique Hodgepodge (including 5 AotV Units; never needed to use the Velnesh)
*16: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Romans (including 4 AotV Units)
*17: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Romans (including 4 AotV Units)

Key to the above:
* = Contained 2+ Units in a Volatile Playtesting State. Some contained as many as 5 unfinalized units, which I don't think is a good enough baseline.
RED = Played against a younger player or the game did not progress far enough to where the Velnesh were really used, sometimes because their army won without needing to use them (so them "not filling their points" is highly misleading in some of these cases).
BOLD = They filled over their points (sometimes close to 200).

Of these tests, only six do not include multiple conflicting playtesting units (not counting Masha to be generous). Of those, the Velnesh filled over their points in four games. Overall, eleven of these seventeen tests have been featuring various hodgepodge armies; that's typically the sort of thing that I'd expect to see from the next stage (Compatibility Testing), once we're comfortable with these guys in a more "traditional" setting. A few are fine, but considering how many of these are already AotV hodgepodges, I'm not comfortable with moving them on yet.

I highly recommend reading back through the playtest reports when you have a chance. They're very informative, but I do not think we are ready to "finalize" the unit yet, especially since they only recently dropped to 90 points. I think that they are very close, but I want to run a few more games with no other playtesting units in situations that they'll excel in. Please humor me and wait for trying to start a vote until I or someone else has a chance to put them through their paces just a little bit more. I get that it sucks to wait for longer and that nothing might change, but I want to ensure that everything is at the highest level of quality that it can possibly be.
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  #346  
Old February 1st, 2021, 09:06 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

You're right that the playtesting so far hasn't been all the latest version. So yes, more tests are great. I do think they haven't changed so much that any tests aren't valid, though. I also don't think it's necessary to play every test against competitive armies. Some, yes, obviously we're not trying to establish a new meta. But ultimately the majority of Heroscape isn't played 500 point blind build. We could maybe stand to sprinkle in fewer "compatibility" tests at this stage, sure.


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  #347  
Old February 3rd, 2021, 11:49 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
You're right that the playtesting so far hasn't been all the latest version. So yes, more tests are great. I do think they haven't changed so much that any tests aren't valid, though. I also don't think it's necessary to play every test against competitive armies. Some, yes, obviously we're not trying to establish a new meta. But ultimately the majority of Heroscape isn't played 500 point blind build. We could maybe stand to sprinkle in fewer "compatibility" tests at this stage, sure.
To be clear, I'm not saying that any of these tests are invalid or anything (I think that they're all valuable and have good things to learn from reading them). I would just vote nay to proceed right now since the primary focus of this stage should be on testing these guys specifically, and we have Compatibility Testing next (which should be a relatively quick stop IMO, especially with how much testing we've already done).
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Old February 5th, 2021, 05:53 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Playtesting

I'd think a couple more tests should be suffiecient (provided they don't use playtesting units @ astro's request). Each time I've played them, the velnesh have felt more and more "at home" in Valhalla.


Note: I also played them in an all AotV game here last year, but it should be noted that this game was intended to help get the AotV project exposure than anything else.

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