Dignan's Maps - New Map 01/30/24 - Page 60

caps · #**709** September 3rd, 2022, 01:56 PM

That's a very pretty map

Dignan · #**710** September 13th, 2022, 09:30 PM

Update 09/13/22

Alright, time to crank out another map. As we are getting closer to NHSD over in here in Texas, I'm trying to get a few more maps up and out there. Here is the latest little guy that we've been running over at my place.

Map: Cinder
Date Uploaded: 09/13/22
Requires: 1 RotV, 1 FotA, 1 VW

Dignan · #**711** September 14th, 2022, 05:38 PM

FYI, there was a small error in the Cinder build instructions. I was missing a hex on level 4. Luckily Gamebear caught it. I've updated the file now.

rednax · #**712** September 15th, 2022, 01:15 AM

Awesome looking map, Dignan!

You know, with all the VW maps you have, I'm shocked you can still find more fire-related titles to use!

Dignan · #**713** September 15th, 2022, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednax

Awesome looking map, Dignan!

You know, with all the VW maps you have, I'm shocked you can still find more fire-related titles to use!

Thanks. And yeah, I'm running out of fire-based names. I'll have to start looking elsewhere here soon.

AMIS · #**714** September 15th, 2022, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dignan

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednax

Awesome looking map, Dignan!

You know, with all the VW maps you have, I'm shocked you can still find more fire-related titles to use!

Thanks. And yeah, I'm running out of fire-based names. I'll have to start looking elsewhere here soon.

Ember's Cross
Flame Spike
Sons of Fire (My bloodbowl team name)
Flickering Glow

Still a bunch to finish...you need more just ask!

caps · #**715** September 25th, 2022, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Would you mind if I remix Cage Match at some point?

This is my attempt to address the objections of the WoS judges (below) to Cage Match

Spoiler Alert!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Cage Match by Dignan

Overall design : This, ladies and gentlemen, is what I love in maps, an original gameplay design backed by a strong aestetic (fortress invaded by swamp and Marro, love it). Almost all the parts of the map have major qualities, but also major downsides, which leads to a good amount of different strategies.

Balance & Playability
In some games, the maps turns out well, and is played the way it was made to be played. These games were a complete blast to play, action all over the map, never ending battle for the glyphs, 180° strategy turns because some glyph is taken by your opponent, some risky plays who turn out very good because it surprised etc…
But in some other games none of that happened because the glyphs were irrevelant and there were no reason for each player to leave the level 3 platform.
The first problem is that this level 3 platform is too easy to hold because if your opponent place his figures correctly, the only ways to attack him are :
1- The swamp of death
2- Two poor little hexs road where the opponent has height advantage on you
That is the main problem of the map, it’s too easy to block the level 3 platform access from your opponent. So melee is screwed because even with both thorian and Astrid, the army which stay on the platform will have the edge. It even leads to melee vs melee games where no one wants to attack (yeah go grab this Astrid and enjoy your +1 attack while I have +1 attak and +1 defense due to height), something which happen very rarely in Heroscape usually.
Note that this problem happen only when one army has little to no range, if both armies have a decent amount of ranged figures, then taking the 4 level hills on the sides is interesting, and it leads to cool games.
But there is another big problem on this map : Thorian doesn’t apply to special attacks. So the screen + special attackers armies will have the advantage in pretty much any machup, and all they do is to stay on the platform.
Melee have close to no chance, 100% guaranteed height disavantage and Astrid quite impossible to grab.
Against range as long as some screen figures, usually very good at grabbing glyphs, touch Thorian, then it’s very hard for the range, because all the choices are bad. Either you let them the glyph and you fight like you were a melee army (see upward, but in worse) or you try to contest the glyphs, throw your figures in the swamp of death, against excellent glyphs grabbers, waste all your attacks on the screen figures, and even if you claim Thorian back the special attacker can just destroy all your stuff down there.
If special attackers where all in the bottom of the rankings that would be good, but that’s far to be the case as the meta is dominated by special attackers with the tons of defensive powers we had since D&D.

Conclusion :
Cage match has a very interesting design and can offer the best game of your life. But it leads too often to boring or not interesting games and don’t have a good balance.
A machup which is usually « hard but I will destroy this f***ing [insert OP figure name here], great challenge

» can become « I don’t want to play this » on Cage Match which is not good at all.
I vote NO to induct Cage Match in the WoS, but I’d love to see it reviewed, with an easier access to the platform for melee and a custom Thorian which also works on special attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dok

Cage Match by Dignan

When I first considered this map for judging, I was extremely skeptical. The Thorian glyph jumped out to me in particular. In the end, though, I was pleasantly surprised. I agree with most of what caps said in his nomination post. The map has a pretty interesting and often fun dynamic.

Thorian was clearly carefully chosen for this map. Without it, ranged squads would be extremely dominant due to the easily defended high ground each side gets. With it, there’s an interesting dynamic in games between range (or ranged normals, anyway) and melee, or range and range. Obviously Thorian is ignored in all-melee contests, but Astrid keeps the middle in play. When games on this map work well, they work very well - I’ve had a couple really good games on this one.

The biggest issue with the map is the two single-spaced dips in the road to level 2 - and, to a lesser extent, the two double-spaced dips on the other side. What these dips do is create a very clear “yours and mine” quality to the sections of level 3 road in the ring. Because of the many blockers and obstacles on the map, it can be extremely difficult to outflank an army that hunkers down on its high area. (The single-spaced swamp water dip on the sides next to the glyph exacerbates this issue by making outflanking still more difficult.) This problem is much worse for double-spaced figures, who can’t even use the road to engage an opponent on that key map position. Instead double spacers have to drop down to an extremely vulnerable level 0 spot, and will often be hit from height on 3 sides the next turn.

I had one particularly distressing game on this map where both me and my opponent played melee armies and we basically had a starting contest across the single-spaced gap until I made a run for it, attacking up around an initiative switch. Most games were not that bad, but overall I saw a pattern where, despite the desirable glyphs and the road ring that would seem to suggest ease of movement, the map would often clog up with one side attacking up at the choke point in the road.

And while I think Thorian makes a lot of sense on this map in many games, the difference between having a ranged special attack and not having one can be as critical on Cage Match as it is when playing against Deathreavers or Mezzodemons. Armies with a Major or Dragon or Kaemon can be at an enormous advantage on this map. That’s not really an indictment of the map, per se, as much as it’s an indictment of the Thorian glyph; it’s a very matchup-dependent glyph in addition to being very powerful, which is a tough combo to work with.

In the end, when I think about judging a map like this, I think about its place in a tournament map pool. My biggest concern is how much this map alters matchups. At a few tournaments I’ve been to, including a few Gencons, there has been one map in the pool that had kind of a notorious reputation among the players for throwing games one way or the other. Having some maps be more melee friendly or range friendly, or unique friendly versus common friendly, is perfectly fine, but in the end this map just seems a bit too extreme in the way it alters things.

It’s possible that I’d be willing to approve this map if it were either just the Thorian swing or just the dips in the road that I was worried about. But collectively, it’s too many red flags for me. It’s a map that I’ll certainly keep in my back pocket for playing games where I’m not worried about those particular issues, but it’s not a map I can give a wholehearted thumbs-up for general tournament use. No to induct.

TL;DR:

"this level 3 platform is too easy to hold... it’s too easy to block the level 3 platform access from your opponent"
"Thorian doesn’t apply to special attacks. So the screen + special attackers armies will have the advantage in pretty much any machup, and all they do is to stay on the platform."
"The biggest issue with the map is the two single-spaced dips in the road to level 2 - and, to a lesser extent, the two double-spaced dips on the other side."
"... the Thorian glyph [is] a very matchup-dependent glyph in addition to being very powerful"

--

To address these issues I raised the road so that is level 3 all the way around the entire map. I also removed Thorian and Astrid as hard-coded glyphs for the map, suggesting they be replaced with other strong glyphs instead. I also removed the swamp water dip along the outside edge of the map, making it easier to go around the sides.

As part of making the road level 3 all the way around, I also removed the level 4 road on the outer edges and replaced it with a single hex on level 4 in the middle of a 7-hex shape of road and sand.

To implement the various level-raising changes I did have to bring in a couple of extra 2-hex snow tiles. These are placeholders--I imagine most collections have some extras, since I know there were some waves that included extra tiles in booster packs. If no extra tiles are available, I believe that some leftover wall bases (of which this map leaves several) would also do the trick.

Finally, I removed a few battlements and added multiple ladders to make the map easier to traverse for melee armies.

--

We'll be using this version at our next several events to see how the changes play out. I did use a similar version at our previous event and liked the way the changes felt while staying true to the spirit of the map.

If @dok or @Foudzing would care to comment on these changes, I would appreciate their feedback.

--

But first, what do *you* think, @Dignan ?

Dignan · #**716** September 26th, 2022, 08:52 AM

Man, that looks pretty good. You've really taken their feedback and found good solutions with the map. It looks like you have kept the original idea behind the map intact and made it for fair from a tournament perspective.

Cage Match was always more of a novelty map from my perspective. I enjoyed it, but I knew it wasn't going to be for everyone. It's glyphs and arrangement were going to keep it a little too spicy for the average event and some matches would just fizzle. I really like how you've worked to make this map more universally consistent in its play. The only thing that is a possible negative is the glyph change. If you don't ensure that the center glyphs are the most powerful, the action on the edge could pull too much and lead to some less than stellar game play.

Otherwise, great job.

caps · #**717** September 26th, 2022, 11:47 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I really love the novelty of this map and I hope these changes make it good enough to start seeing regular tournament play. I really like seeing the bounds of what can be a tournament map pushed. Along the same lines it was Grutsbane Pass that inspired me to make Thaw, and I'll be playing around with that concept some more in the future.

I'll add a note about putting the strongest glyphs in the center of the map to the build instructions.

Foudzing · #**718** December 6th, 2022, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caps

Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Would you mind if I remix Cage Match at some point?

This is my attempt to address the objections of the WoS judges (below) to Cage Match

Spoiler Alert!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Cage Match by Dignan

Overall design : This, ladies and gentlemen, is what I love in maps, an original gameplay design backed by a strong aestetic (fortress invaded by swamp and Marro, love it). Almost all the parts of the map have major qualities, but also major downsides, which leads to a good amount of different strategies.

Balance & Playability
In some games, the maps turns out well, and is played the way it was made to be played. These games were a complete blast to play, action all over the map, never ending battle for the glyphs, 180° strategy turns because some glyph is taken by your opponent, some risky plays who turn out very good because it surprised etc…
But in some other games none of that happened because the glyphs were irrevelant and there were no reason for each player to leave the level 3 platform.
The first problem is that this level 3 platform is too easy to hold because if your opponent place his figures correctly, the only ways to attack him are :
1- The swamp of death
2- Two poor little hexs road where the opponent has height advantage on you
That is the main problem of the map, it’s too easy to block the level 3 platform access from your opponent. So melee is screwed because even with both thorian and Astrid, the army which stay on the platform will have the edge. It even leads to melee vs melee games where no one wants to attack (yeah go grab this Astrid and enjoy your +1 attack while I have +1 attak and +1 defense due to height), something which happen very rarely in Heroscape usually.
Note that this problem happen only when one army has little to no range, if both armies have a decent amount of ranged figures, then taking the 4 level hills on the sides is interesting, and it leads to cool games.
But there is another big problem on this map : Thorian doesn’t apply to special attacks. So the screen + special attackers armies will have the advantage in pretty much any machup, and all they do is to stay on the platform.
Melee have close to no chance, 100% guaranteed height disavantage and Astrid quite impossible to grab.
Against range as long as some screen figures, usually very good at grabbing glyphs, touch Thorian, then it’s very hard for the range, because all the choices are bad. Either you let them the glyph and you fight like you were a melee army (see upward, but in worse) or you try to contest the glyphs, throw your figures in the swamp of death, against excellent glyphs grabbers, waste all your attacks on the screen figures, and even if you claim Thorian back the special attacker can just destroy all your stuff down there.
If special attackers where all in the bottom of the rankings that would be good, but that’s far to be the case as the meta is dominated by special attackers with the tons of defensive powers we had since D&D.

Conclusion :
Cage match has a very interesting design and can offer the best game of your life. But it leads too often to boring or not interesting games and don’t have a good balance.
A machup which is usually « hard but I will destroy this f***ing [insert OP figure name here], great challenge

» can become « I don’t want to play this » on Cage Match which is not good at all.
I vote NO to induct Cage Match in the WoS, but I’d love to see it reviewed, with an easier access to the platform for melee and a custom Thorian which also works on special attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dok

Cage Match by Dignan

When I first considered this map for judging, I was extremely skeptical. The Thorian glyph jumped out to me in particular. In the end, though, I was pleasantly surprised. I agree with most of what caps said in his nomination post. The map has a pretty interesting and often fun dynamic.

Thorian was clearly carefully chosen for this map. Without it, ranged squads would be extremely dominant due to the easily defended high ground each side gets. With it, there’s an interesting dynamic in games between range (or ranged normals, anyway) and melee, or range and range. Obviously Thorian is ignored in all-melee contests, but Astrid keeps the middle in play. When games on this map work well, they work very well - I’ve had a couple really good games on this one.

The biggest issue with the map is the two single-spaced dips in the road to level 2 - and, to a lesser extent, the two double-spaced dips on the other side. What these dips do is create a very clear “yours and mine” quality to the sections of level 3 road in the ring. Because of the many blockers and obstacles on the map, it can be extremely difficult to outflank an army that hunkers down on its high area. (The single-spaced swamp water dip on the sides next to the glyph exacerbates this issue by making outflanking still more difficult.) This problem is much worse for double-spaced figures, who can’t even use the road to engage an opponent on that key map position. Instead double spacers have to drop down to an extremely vulnerable level 0 spot, and will often be hit from height on 3 sides the next turn.

I had one particularly distressing game on this map where both me and my opponent played melee armies and we basically had a starting contest across the single-spaced gap until I made a run for it, attacking up around an initiative switch. Most games were not that bad, but overall I saw a pattern where, despite the desirable glyphs and the road ring that would seem to suggest ease of movement, the map would often clog up with one side attacking up at the choke point in the road.

And while I think Thorian makes a lot of sense on this map in many games, the difference between having a ranged special attack and not having one can be as critical on Cage Match as it is when playing against Deathreavers or Mezzodemons. Armies with a Major or Dragon or Kaemon can be at an enormous advantage on this map. That’s not really an indictment of the map, per se, as much as it’s an indictment of the Thorian glyph; it’s a very matchup-dependent glyph in addition to being very powerful, which is a tough combo to work with.

In the end, when I think about judging a map like this, I think about its place in a tournament map pool. My biggest concern is how much this map alters matchups. At a few tournaments I’ve been to, including a few Gencons, there has been one map in the pool that had kind of a notorious reputation among the players for throwing games one way or the other. Having some maps be more melee friendly or range friendly, or unique friendly versus common friendly, is perfectly fine, but in the end this map just seems a bit too extreme in the way it alters things.

It’s possible that I’d be willing to approve this map if it were either just the Thorian swing or just the dips in the road that I was worried about. But collectively, it’s too many red flags for me. It’s a map that I’ll certainly keep in my back pocket for playing games where I’m not worried about those particular issues, but it’s not a map I can give a wholehearted thumbs-up for general tournament use. No to induct.

TL;DR:

"this level 3 platform is too easy to hold... it’s too easy to block the level 3 platform access from your opponent"
"Thorian doesn’t apply to special attacks. So the screen + special attackers armies will have the advantage in pretty much any machup, and all they do is to stay on the platform."
"The biggest issue with the map is the two single-spaced dips in the road to level 2 - and, to a lesser extent, the two double-spaced dips on the other side."
"... the Thorian glyph [is] a very matchup-dependent glyph in addition to being very powerful"

--

To address these issues I raised the road so that is level 3 all the way around the entire map. I also removed Thorian and Astrid as hard-coded glyphs for the map, suggesting they be replaced with other strong glyphs instead. I also removed the swamp water dip along the outside edge of the map, making it easier to go around the sides.

As part of making the road level 3 all the way around, I also removed the level 4 road on the outer edges and replaced it with a single hex on level 4 in the middle of a 7-hex shape of road and sand.

To implement the various level-raising changes I did have to bring in a couple of extra 2-hex snow tiles. These are placeholders--I imagine most collections have some extras, since I know there were some waves that included extra tiles in booster packs. If no extra tiles are available, I believe that some leftover wall bases (of which this map leaves several) would also do the trick.

Finally, I removed a few battlements and added multiple ladders to make the map easier to traverse for melee armies.

--

We'll be using this version at our next several events to see how the changes play out. I did use a similar version at our previous event and liked the way the changes felt while staying true to the spirit of the map.

If @dok or @Foudzing would care to comment on these changes, I would appreciate their feedback.

--

But first, what do *you* think, @Dignan ?

Hello @caps ,your remix looks very good, I kinda want to review it again but I have no scape anymore and can only play online soi I need to do the top-down view etc...
If you are up to do some online playtesting hit me up!

caps · #**719** December 6th, 2022, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Hello @caps ,your remix looks very good, I kinda want to review it again but I have no scape anymore and can only play online soi I need to do the top-down view etc...
If you are up to do some online playtesting hit me up!

I am planning to upload this map to my own map thread soon (with credit to @Dignan , assuming he gives his blessing for me posting it there) along with the .hsc. Right now the remix has nowhere to "live" so unless Dignan wants to post it here in his thread I think that makes sense.

I've never made an overhead before but I know that when you have the .hsc it is fairly straightforward? If you don't want to do it perhaps we could ask someone like superfrog to do it?

I'm glad you like the look of it!

Foudzing · #**720** December 7th, 2022, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caps

I've never made an overhead before but I know that when you have the .hsc it is fairly straightforward? If you don't want to do it perhaps we could ask someone like superfrog to do it?

Neither did I, but I think it's pretty much just take a top-down screenshot, place the numbers and save as an image.

Yeah maybe, or maybe superfrog is bothered by other stuff I dunno.

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