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  #277  
Old March 26th, 2009, 11:35 PM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question Discussion

The way I understand and have been playing Lob is as follow:

An Airborne Elite (A) wants to lob an opponent figure (O). If you can draw a curve from A to O which:
- has a horizontal projection that is not more than 5 hexes long
- has a vertical projection that is not more than 12 levels high
- does not intersect with anything
then you can do the Lob.

I think that solves all of the cases presented here and also explains what "clear space" is. Of course, I'll wait for the rule team as everyone else .

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  #278  
Old March 27th, 2009, 01:06 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertDD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizziii View Post
You can only attack creatures in line of sight (you must be able to see their hit areas). You cannot make attacks around corners.

Charles
Yeah, well, WotC also wrote to someone you can't fly out of water. I mean, the first part of that line that you bolded is obviously false (Grenade, Shotgun Blast) so why would the second part be right? Charles hasn't got the foggiest what he's talking about and I would not rely too much on what he wrote there.

Like I said: wait for the real ruling from our rule team. They tend to live up to a higher standard than WotC.
I know. That's why I never posted it when it showed up and made sure to fill out the questionairre. The only reason I posted it is because of your comment that sent you diving for cover.
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  #279  
Old March 27th, 2009, 01:12 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question Discussion

Ok guys here it is:


Grenades 101

How to conduct the Lob
It has become painfully apparent that there are questions concerning Lob that cannot be answered easily. After much discussion and shifting position we realize that there cannot be a ruling on Lob without defining one concept that is unique to Lob, and that is “clear area”. Below is a walk through of the Grenade Lob procedure with an explanation that should clear away a lot of the ambiguities of Lob.

The steps
So you’re playing the game and you decide you want to use one of your Airborne Elite to Lob a Grenade at a figure.

1. Remove the Grenade Marker

2. See if the target figure is within Range
Count the hex spaces from the Airborne Elite to the target by using the most direct route, and ignoring any terrain (including overhangs) or obstacles of any kind. Just count the spaces (note that a figure directly above or below the Airborne would be considered at a range of 1 for this purpose). If the figure is within a range of 5 spaces, you may continue to step 3.

3. Check LOS
  • If the Airborne Elite can see the target, and the target is not directly above or below the Airborne Elite, continue to step 4.
  • If the Airborne Elite can see the target, and the target is directly above or below, but no more than 12 levels higher than the Airborne Elite's base, continue to step 5.
  • If the Airborne Elite cannot see the target because of intervening objects or terrain that are more than 12 levels higher than the Airborne Elite’s base, stop here. He cannot Lob to that target, otherwise continue to step 4.
4. Calculate your Clear Area
Clear Area is the path that the grenade must take to actually reach it’s target. To calculate Clear Area, count the spaces the grenade must travel to reach the target using the same method you would use to count the movement of a figure that has the Flying ability. If, in order to reach the target, the grenade passes onto any space that is higher than 12 levels above the Airborne Elite’s base, or if the amount of spaces traveled by the grenade is more than the spaces counted for Range in step 2, then there can be no Lob, otherwise continue to step 5.

5. Success!
If you've made it this far, then all of the above criteria have been met, the Lob is a go, and you may roll attack dice and continue to resolve the attack as usual.


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  #280  
Old March 27th, 2009, 01:40 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question & Clarification pg 14

Dandy schmandy! Thanks, "Rules Team."
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  #281  
Old March 27th, 2009, 01:55 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question & Clarification pg 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Migraine View Post
Dandy schmandy! Thanks, "Rules Team."
Grunge did a ton of work getting this down pat, We've tried to explain it as simply as possible. Hope this helps.

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  #282  
Old March 27th, 2009, 02:02 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question & Clarification pg 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by theGuru View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Migraine View Post
Dandy schmandy! Thanks, "Rules Team."
Grunge did a ton of work getting this down pat, We've tried to explain it as simply as possible. Hope this helps.
The reason we did a walk through instead of just defining Clear Area, is so that we don't have to answer a bunch of other related questions, and so we can put it all down there. In reality the "steps" will likely not be used, as in 99% of the cases Lob will be self evident.


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  #283  
Old March 27th, 2009, 03:40 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question & Clarification pg 14

I like it. Step 3 prevents the curving around tall walls problem. Step 4 takes care of the path doubling back on itself problem in the requirement that the path-count cannot exceed the range-count.

Good-on-ya!

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  #284  
Old March 27th, 2009, 08:51 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question & Clarification pg 14

Good job.

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  #285  
Old March 27th, 2009, 09:33 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question & Clarification pg 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmgames View Post
I like it. Step 3 prevents the curving around tall walls problem. Step 4 takes care of the path doubling back on itself problem in the requirement that the path-count cannot exceed the range-count.

Good-on-ya!

~Z
I think it also clarifies the "lobbing downwards through terrain" problem, since, in order to count movement for Flying, you would have to go around to the bottom, not through the ground. But then, those spaces would be more than the range you counted, so Lob fails, correct?

Guys, this is a fantastic ruling in my eyes. Thanks for taking the time to clarify this unlikely situation. It's great to see people this dedicated to the game. Well done.

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  #286  
Old March 27th, 2009, 10:15 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question & Clarification pg 14

R˙chean, TheGuru and Grungebob,

You were right, I am pleased. I think the ruling does an excellent job of describing the Lob. It's a clear ruleset that can be applied with mathematical precision to any situation, and the results are certainly within the spirit of the idea of lobbing as we know it from the real world. I thought the way you guys described/used point 4 is especially inventive, and does what it's supposed to do really well. All in all: great job!

I disagree with previous posters that this is simple. I am still trying to completely get my head around all of it, but I am actually thankful for the level of complexity you guys have chosen to apply to this. I think it befits the complexity of the issue at hand.

I can see one situation where a grenade can still be thrown with a slight curve around a wall. Imagine a Marro figure underneath a low overhang, lower than 12 high. Direct LOS between AE and Marro is blocked by a wall underneath the overhang that runs from ceiling to floor, but the path around the wall into the bunker is still the shortest path to the Marro. In that scenario, following the letter of the ruling, you can still hit the Marro underneath the overhang. My feelings about that? I have no problem with it whatsoever. It's fine. It does not weigh up to the added complexity to avoid this, and I wouldn't be surprised if the rule team has already thought of this situation and came up with the same conclusion that I did.

In trying to understand the solution and the reasoning behind every step, I did come up with a question:
"If the Airborne Elite can see the target, and the target is not directly above or below the Airborne Elite, continue to step 4."
Why is that step included? If you can see your target, can't you just always just hit it, as long as it's within range 5 and elevation 12? What is the scenario in which you want to make the extra step?

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  #287  
Old March 27th, 2009, 10:22 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question & Clarification pg 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertDD View Post
In trying to understand the solution and the reasoning behind every step, I did come up with a question:
"If the Airborne Elite can see the target, and the target is not directly above or below the Airborne Elite, continue to step 4."
Why is that step included? If you can see your target, can't you just always just hit it, as long as it's within range 5 and elevation 12? What is the scenario in which you want to make the extra step?

~Robert - Grateful there's a rule team to sort out his personal issues.
There are figures whose sculp far exceeds their base. Imagine being able to throw a curving grenade simply because you could see the tip of grimnak's tail poking out from behind an area where he could not normally be hit by a grenade. These examples can get quite extreme. By putting that qualifier in there, we further reduce curveballs.


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  #288  
Old March 27th, 2009, 10:23 AM
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Re: Simpson's AE Grenade Question & Clarification pg 14

Edit: Jerry answered it Thanks Grunge!

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