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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies.


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  #169  
Old April 8th, 2021, 09:27 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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I'm legitimately looking for feedback on these rankings. You probably won't change my mind from A-/B+ and up (but you're certainly welcome to try!). I'm primarily interested in hearing thoughts about the more middling and poor units.

@Dysole , now's your time to shine.
Arrow Gruts from B+ to at least A- (if not A since that's where Spiders/GWs are).
Spiders are at B. I can drop Arrows down to B?

Last edited by OEAO; April 8th, 2021 at 09:28 PM. Reason: Always happy to help!
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  #170  
Old April 8th, 2021, 09:32 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
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Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
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Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
I'm legitimately looking for feedback on these rankings. You probably won't change my mind from A-/B+ and up (but you're certainly welcome to try!). I'm primarily interested in hearing thoughts about the more middling and poor units.

@Dysole , now's your time to shine.
Arrow Gruts from B+ to at least A- (if not A since that's where Spiders/GWs are).
Spiders are at B. I can drop Arrows down to B?
I edited my post. Thought this was VC-inclusive. AGs should be A-. The army I went to VCheese finals with is pure Classic. No reason to believe it wouldn't perform in Cheese too.

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  #171  
Old April 8th, 2021, 09:48 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
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Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
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Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
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Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
I'm legitimately looking for feedback on these rankings. You probably won't change my mind from A-/B+ and up (but you're certainly welcome to try!). I'm primarily interested in hearing thoughts about the more middling and poor units.

@Dysole , now's your time to shine.
Arrow Gruts from B+ to at least A- (if not A since that's where Spiders/GWs are).
Spiders are at B. I can drop Arrows down to B?
I edited my post. Thought this was VC-inclusive. AGs should be A-. The army I went to VCheese finals with is pure Classic. No reason to believe it wouldn't perform in Cheese too.
Whatís your plan for Q9 in that army?

I really donít think one event where Arrows went 3-1 is enough to prove that theyíre A-.
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  #172  
Old April 8th, 2021, 09:59 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

I'm not sure AGs are quite A-, but I'll vouch for this new build without swogs or Krug as being a likely better version of them into most of the other top armies. Basically I think per their points AGs are worth more as a semi-pure screen than as offense with swogs.

Regarding Q9, to be fair, DCs & PKs into Q9 + Rats x4 is just as bad as AGs if not worse, and they're solidly A-. Same with Cyprien. I'm not convinced that a brutal matchup into Q9 means much in terms of keeping something out of A-. I think the matchups with the other A- units matters more.
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  #173  
Old April 8th, 2021, 10:04 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Chris Perkins View Post
I'm not sure AGs are quite A-, but I'll vouch for this new build without swogs or Krug as being a likely better version of them into most of the other top armies. Basically I think per their points AGs are worth more as a semi-pure screen than as offense with swogs.

Regarding Q9, to be fair, DCs & PKs into Q9 + Rats x4 is just as bad as AGs if not worse, and they're solidly A-. Same with Cyprien. I'm not convinced that a brutal matchup into Q9 means much in terms of keeping something out of A-. I think the matchups with the other A- units matters more.
Certainly if GWs are A-, AGs are. AGs will always stay 2 squads ahead and can add Marcu where the point totals allow.

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  #174  
Old April 8th, 2021, 10:16 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins View Post
I'm not sure AGs are quite A-, but I'll vouch for this new build without swogs or Krug as being a likely better version of them into most of the other top armies. Basically I think per their points AGs are worth more as a semi-pure screen than as offense with swogs.

Regarding Q9, to be fair, DCs & PKs into Q9 + Rats x4 is just as bad as AGs if not worse, and they're solidly A-. Same with Cyprien. I'm not convinced that a brutal matchup into Q9 means much in terms of keeping something out of A-. I think the matchups with the other A- units matters more.
Certainly if GWs are A-, AGs are. AGs will always stay 2 squads ahead and can add Marcu where the point totals allow.
That part I'm not sold on. GWs can bond with Nilf and AGs can't.

I'm definitely still on the Nilf/GWs > Mimring/AGs (as I suspect almost everyone is). Nilf can just kill A/A+ stuff so much better.

I think the better argument for AG inclusion in A- (and I'm not necessarily sold on it, just think it's the best reason) is their ability to screen against the A- mele squads to protect Mimring and having a nice matchup into Mezzos (albeit you'll rarely see Mezos x4+, but if you do and you have Mimring + AGs you're fairly happy about it).
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  #175  
Old April 8th, 2021, 10:48 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Arrow Gruts are nowhere close to an A. I wouldnít even have them at B+.

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  #176  
Old April 8th, 2021, 10:52 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Hmmm... AGs definitely beat everything in B+. In VCheese, my 2nd and 3rd wins came against Raelin/10th/Hydra and VCheese A(+) Junk (Raelin/Rats/VI/KMA), all of which are A or better. Sure they maybe have a bad matchup or two against A- to A+ figures but so does every other A- figure. That’s what A- is.

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  #177  
Old April 8th, 2021, 11:03 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
Hmmm... AGs definitely beat everything in B+. In VCheese, my 2nd and 3rd wins came against Raelin/10th/Hydra and VCheese A(+) Junk (Raelin/Rats/VI/KMA), all of which are A or better. Sure they maybe have a bad matchup or two against A- to A+ figures but so does every other A- figure. That’s what A- is.
I guess I just disagree. I would take Dividers, Sacred Band, Brutes, Cutters, Blade Gruts, Spiders, Gladiators, Warforged, just to name a few over arrow gruts all day every day.

We do both agree that they beat the stingers though. So there’s some common ground.

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Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; April 8th, 2021 at 11:07 PM. Reason: Just ask Cleon about Chainfighters beating Arrow Gruts...
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  #178  
Old April 9th, 2021, 12:40 AM
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Back In Action

Look OEAO

I like all my bad units but I do recognize they're bad. I stand by most of what I put in this original post.

I can argue Roman Archers, Shaolin Monks, Gorillinators, and EOV moving up a half grade. I think Murphy and Granite Guardians should move up a half grade. Everything else I stand by.

Arrow Gruts + Mimring + Raelin has potential but it's reliant on a 5 life 3 defense figure for most of its offense. I think the reason it did so well is partially because it got a bye and then two matchups that played into its strengths plus it being unusual meant that the Moltenclaw effect was in play (people rarely see it so they don't always remember how to play against it). I think it's fine where it is for its ranking.

~Dysole, calling it like she sees it
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  #179  
Old April 9th, 2021, 09:53 AM
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Re: Back In Action

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Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Look OEAO

I like all my bad units but I do recognize they're bad. I stand by most of what I put in this original post.

I can argue Roman Archers, Shaolin Monks, Gorillinators, and EOV moving up a half grade. I think Murphy and Granite Guardians should move up a half grade. Everything else I stand by.

Arrow Gruts + Mimring + Raelin has potential but it's reliant on a 5 life 3 defense figure for most of its offense. I think the reason it did so well is partially because it got a bye and then two matchups that played into its strengths plus it being unusual meant that the Moltenclaw effect was in play (people rarely see it so they don't always remember how to play against it). I think it's fine where it is for its ranking.

~Dysole, calling it like she sees it
LMAO, I think you just found the new podcast intro...

I think the OP is pretty much in line with your original post, with only a few small discrepancies one way or the other. For example, I think Spiders/Wyvern are closer to B+ than they are to B-.

I bumped up those four a slot. I bumped up both James and Johnny. I don't see Johnny as being a grade worse, but maybe I undervalue Whip 12? Idk, it feels "fair" for 10 points, and I'm fine paying 65 and not getting it. I don't think Granites are quite B tier.

Thanks for the input!
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  #180  
Old April 9th, 2021, 10:59 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

The only units that appear way out of place to me outside the low tiers are Feral Troll and Parmenio. Feral Trollís just really bad, the only time it shines is in specific endgames, otherwise it just dies to commons. I think itís like D/C-. As much as Iíd like Parmenio to work, heís the worst bonding hero out of all the options for the bonding melee 4-squads and belongs in C+. Heís definitely not on par with Hawthorne, and definitely not in a tier above Denrick.

Looking again...I think Emirroon is a lot lower and isnít worth it unless youíre playing high point games, Iíd put him in C+, no higher than B- (def not higher than Chardris). Similarly I believe the Marro Hive is really not worth it in the usual tournament parameters and should be dropped significantly. WoB/Werewolf Lord should be in the C tiers, C+ is fine. I donít see what you see in Woo or why heís higher than the monks. Iíd bump Torin down a tier, heís not great, evil eye can just be played around too much.

After B- you start to get into the low tiers and it becomes this weird thing of this unit is probably better than this one, but theyíre both bad so why are you playing either? If thereís any unit Iíd move up from down there, I donít think Tul-Bak-Raís that bad, heís pretty good with Dividers. Jotun and Deathwalker 8000 I think are like teetering between C+ and B-.

But yeah other than that I think the Bís and up look good. I have disagreements but I donít think thereís anything Iíd move more than a single tier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
We do both agree that they beat the stingers though. So thereís some common ground.
I would say something that bashes the knights, but a knights build actually won that VCheese event so Iím not saying anything hahaha.

Also Chainfighters are like two tiers higher on Stygian Rift
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